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Author Topic:   Why is sin heritable?
iano
Member (Idle past 1970 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 103 of 139 (564234)
06-09-2010 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-06-2010 7:03 AM


Larni writes:
Why did Yahweh make sin heritable?
It may be that he didn't make it so but that it was inevitably so - a function of the natural created order of things. Consider the following elements/hints - after which I'll pose what I think might be the case.
We would agree that the 'Trinity' is a mysterious notion, the idea of three persons mingled into one God. Whatever about it's incomprehensibility, it appears there exists an intimacy/intermingling between the persons of the Godhead that far exceeds even the closest of intimacies experienced by us.
As Jaywill so frequently and eloquently points out, it appears to be Gods intent that those who 'go to heaven' will in fact join in and share in that most intimate of unions. We are told that saved men are elevated to the status of children of God which, considering that Christ is the Son of God, indicates our partaking in this most intimate of unions. Other intimate pictures abound in the Bible: Christians described as part of the same body, Christians (collectively) the bride of Christ - with marriage decribed as a place where two become one.
Lastly, we are also told that this eternal 'future' situation is the result of restorative action on God's part - that man's fall was in some ways, a falling away from a lofty, intimate height.
Your question is set in the context of the post-Fall world. In that context, men exist as discrete personhoods, separated from their neighbour physically, emotionally, spiritually. Intimacy between men is an awkward, frequently superficial (even within the context of marriage) affair. The soul of man has trouble looking the soul of another man straight in the eyes. Indeed, it often has trouble looking into it's own eyes - as your work in psychology doubtlessly informs you. The word "hereditary" perfectly underlines our tendency to see ourselves as separated-from-others individuals - we envisage an inherited trait or disease as something which has leapt the dividing boundary between individuals. That we be separated individuals appears to us to be the natural state when in fact it is an unnatural one - one that merely reflects the Fallen environment in which we live.
The pre-Fall situation was otherwise. Mankind was modelled on the godly order: an intimate, singular entity albeit an entity made up of personhoods ("let us make man in our image and likeness"). So when sin-disease infected that singular entity through one of it's constituent parts (Adam), the densest of networks of interconnectivity between it and all other constituent parts (the rest of us) ensured easy passage for Sin to all corners.
The only way to prevent such a spread would have been not to create man in God's own image and likeness but to create him in something like his post-Fall state: separate, individual, discrete and separated from other men. Which would defeat the purpose of making man in God's own image and likeness. Man in God's own image and likeness can become part of the Godhead what with being of like-order. Man unlike God cannot mingle with God any more than oil with water can mingle.
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If one accepts that Adam deserved punishment and Yahweh did indeed punish him why did Yahweh also decide to punish other people (Adam descendants) so setting in motion the events that required Yahweh kill his own son.
Does the above help? Adam was part of the body mankind. In infecting himself, he infected all parts. The fact we can inherit from another might be seen as a vestige of the uber-connectedness that existed in our pre-Fall state. And a precursor to the connectedness that shall again exist in the eternal state.
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I would contend that Yahweh's 'go to' method for getting things done is suffering even to the point of making himself suffer, but that can't be right, can it?
Suffering is a fantastic way to tell us that something is wrong. It tends to get our attention and without it we'd be dead in no time.
Don't diss suffering!
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-06-2010 7:03 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Larni, posted 06-09-2010 8:15 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1970 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 105 of 139 (564247)
06-09-2010 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Larni
06-09-2010 8:15 AM


By "natural order" I mean amongst other things, logic. The natural order deriving as it does from God's nature precludes God breaking it. He can't act illogically for example (it is suggested)
What you'll hopefully see from the post above is that;
a) God can create a vessel with a compartmentalised hull sealed off by watertight doors. The advantage of such a design is that a hole pierced in one compartment (Adam sinning) won't result in water engulfing the whole vessel (Sin (capital S) enters all of mankind ). The disadvantage (from God's perspectivr) is the resulting restriction on movement around the hull (ie: lack of imtimacy/interconnectedness between men and between men and God)
b) God can create a vessel with an open plan hull design. The disadvantage here is that a hole in any part of the vessel results in the whole vessel sinking. But the advantage is unrestrained interconnectedness between all points of the hull (ie: fullness of intimacy/union).
What God can't do (logically) is have the advantages of both hull designs at once - since the characteristics of one design are the polar opposite of the other.
Sin inherited by all due to the sin of one is a natural feature of the b) class of hull design. That is the design that God chose in creating mankind.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Larni, posted 06-09-2010 8:15 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Larni, posted 06-15-2010 4:52 AM iano has not replied

  
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