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Author Topic:   Creation, Evolution, and faith
dwise1
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Joined: 05-02-2006
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Message 332 of 456 (557201)
04-23-2010 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by kbertsche
04-23-2010 12:08 AM


Re: Tracing back to early comments...
Religion is allowed free reign so long as it NEVER makes any claims or comments about the physical world.
This isn't so much a matter of giving or withholding religion permission to make claims about the physical world. Nor necessarily whether that's within religion's purview (I believe that it is not). Rather, how capable is religion in this regard? Again, I believe, not very.
In practical terms, how can we test the claims and comments made by religion? The types of questions that are within the purview of religion -- "why?", "what does it mean?", "how then are we to live our lives?" (which our first minister presented as the ultimate and most fundamental religious question) -- are very difficult to test against the real world, except perhaps when we examine the consequences of people following certain teachings. If religion makes statements about the supernatural, how are we to test those statements? We cannot, so we leave religion well-enough alone to make those statements.
But when religion makes statements, definitive statements, about the physical world, then we do have something to test those statements against ... the physical world. The claims of "creation science" are just such definitive statements made about the physical world. Such statements are testable, they have been tested, and they have been found to be incredibly wrong.
Should religion be allowed to make false statements about the physical world? Hell no! Should religion be allowed make false statements about the supernatural? Again, hell no! But we are powerless to hold them accountable in the latter case since we cannot check out those claims, rather only in the former case where we can actually check out their claims. At most, we can say that, since they are so incredibly wrong about those claims that we are able to check out, why should we believe them about the claims that we cannot check out?
For the past three decades, I have unwaveringly insisted that if creationists want to make claims about the physical world, then they must ensure that their claims are both truthful and accurate. It does not matter to me in the least whether they oppose evolution, I just insist that they be absolutely truthful in conducting their opposition, which "creation science" is infamous for not doing. Creationist reaction has invariably (with maybe a few -- which to me means about 3 -- exceptions) been viciously hateful and vitriolic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by kbertsche, posted 04-23-2010 12:08 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2010 3:47 PM dwise1 has not replied

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