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Author Topic:   Evolution is most likely a part of intelligent design
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 59 (355898)
10-11-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kent75
10-11-2006 1:48 AM


Ever thought that Evolution is a part of Intelligent Design?
Well, since Intelligent Design is the proposition that the scientific theory of evolution is insufficient to account for the complexity of living things on Earth, and evolution is the proposition that the scientific theory of evolution is sufficient to account for the complexity of living things on Earth, how could evolution possibly be a part of intelligent design?
Moreover - how could evolution be intelligently designed? Life began to evolve 4 billion years ago; intelligent living things only appeared 200,000 years ago or so. There was no intelligence back then to do the designing.

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 Message 1 by kent75, posted 10-11-2006 1:48 AM kent75 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 59 (357385)
10-19-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
10-18-2006 11:20 PM


Re: There are no instructions
We've all known this was the implication growing up, but until recently, the concept that things become more complex or "better" has turned on its head.
"All extant species are equally evolved." ” Lynn Margulis
"There is no progress in evolution." ” Stephen Jay Gould
"We all agree that there's no progress." ” Richard Dawkins
"The fallacy of progress" ” John Maynard Smith
Read much? I don't see the words "better" or "complex" (they're not synonyms, by the way) in any of those quotes.
And this for the simple fact that its a chicken-egg argument. You can't have enzymes w/o genes, and you can't genes w/o enzymes.
According to RNA research, that's exactly what you can have. RNA can catalyze reactions directly in the same way that protein enzymes do.
There's no chicken/egg problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-18-2006 11:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 11:20 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 59 (357476)
10-19-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
10-19-2006 11:20 AM


Re: There are no instructions
How is that not synonymous?
Because, as any engineer knows, more complex isn't necessarily better. More complex means more places to break.
It's no accident that the vast, vast majority of living things on Earth are now, and have always been, single-celled organisms. The macrobiotic life that you immediately think of when somebody says "life", the zebras and the monkeys and the whales and such, those are just blips. Statistical outliers. Exceptions to the rule.
Most evolutionists of the past recognized a general direction-- from less to greater, less intelligent to more intelligent, less autonomy to more autonomy, from simple to complex. Over the past century, some very unpopular beliefs about eugenics arose as a direct result of Darwin's theory. Its now considered taboo to refer to a species as more or less evolved, as in, less complex or intelligent, to more complex or more intelligent.
Source for this? History of evolution is one of my hobbies and there's no indication in the historical record that your account here bears any relation to reality.
When looking at the famous evolutionary tree, anyone can see a general direction no matter how taboo that's become in recent decades.
Sure. There's a general direction. A whole lot of people here are telling you what it is, but you don't seem to be interested in paying any attention. Why is that? When so many people are desperate to teach you, why is it like pulling teeth to get you to learn?
There's an overall direction in the history of life on Earth. Nobody's said different. That direction is that diversity expands and increases over time. At the beginning, living things were not very diverse. They were mostly all the same. Even during the "Cambrian explosion", described in creationist circles as the immediate and sudden appearance of most of today's major phyla, less than about 10,000 different species evolved. Most of the phyla represented in the Cambrian period are known from only a few hundred species each.
Today those phyla encompass millions of species. Diversity increases over time; that's real trend. And as part of increasing diversity, we would expect a few complex organisms over time, like we have now. We certainly wouldn't expect every organism to get more complex - that would be less diversity over time, not more. We see a greater diversity of complexity, which is why there are more complex organisms at this time than in the past, and also why simple organisms are still the rule and always will be.
I was speaking more about how RNA could have come about all on its own in the frist place when it needs enzymes and genes at the same time.
It doesn't. RNA can catalyze it's own formation. Small segments of RNA can assemble randomly.
It's not hard to see where this is going, I hope.
The synthesizing of nucleotides and achieving replication of RNA under plausible prebiotic conditions have proved just as challenging as all the other Origin of life considerations.
Well, biology isn't for sissies. If you're afraid of a little hard work I'd suggest a different hobby.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 11:20 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-19-2006 2:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 48 of 59 (357505)
10-19-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
10-19-2006 2:28 PM


Re: There are no instructions
However, I do not know how someone would actually compute that life today is more complex than say, life one million years ago.
Me neither. I have no idea how you would measure complexity except in the most casual, loose sense. A motorcycle is more complex than a bicycle. A Macintosh is more complex than an abacus.
Diversity, though, that seems pretty easy to measure. Which is why it's so easy to see the trend in it's increase throughout the fossil record.

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 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-19-2006 2:28 PM jar has not replied

  
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