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Author
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Topic: Is Jesus God?
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 252 of 492 (553118)
04-01-2010 2:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
04-01-2010 9:18 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it. Heh. Don't you see that you're saying that god is so powerful that he doesn't have a power? Your position is self-contradictory. If god has infinite power then he most certainly would be able to bundle himself up into a tiny fleck, or anything else. But anyways... It seems that everytime someone shows Biblical references to Jesus' divinity, you claim that he, god the son, is not equivalent to god the father. And sure, there has to be some kind of difference in order for them to be different, but they're still part of the same thing. Jesus is god incarnate:
wiki on incarnation He is god and man. But yes, this is not exactly identical to God (the father). But from what I've read in this thread, Jesus' divinity has been scriptually supported. You're left with the argument that they're not exactly identical.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 9:18 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 254 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 7:57 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied | | | Message 255 by cavediver, posted 04-02-2010 8:51 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 256 of 492 (553247)
04-02-2010 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 254 by Peg
04-01-2010 7:57 PM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Unfortunately, the scriptures that have been used simply do not mesh with the many that I have posted which show the opposite. That's the Bible for you  Yes, there are contradictions. Yes, some passages say that Jesus was not the exact same thing as God. But regardless, you have been provided passages that do say that Jesus was God.
Even Jesus own words about who he was do not fit with the idea that he is God. Tell me why Jesus did not announce that he was God in the flesh? Rather he said said: I am God’s Son. (John 10:36) That's not exactly what my KJV Bible says...
quote:
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus was asking them if they were accusing him of blashphemy because he said that he was the Son of God. But take a look at these lines from John 10:
quote:
30 I and my Father are one. ... 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
He is one with God and they are in each other. Its clear that Jesus was God. Full context:
quote:
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Tell me why, if he was God, he said I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 5:30) Everything is by the will of God (the Father).
Also, explain why when he was on the torture stake, he prayed to God when he cried out My God, my God why have you forsaken me. (Matthew 27:46) And then after he had been resurrected he told Mary Magdalene I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:1, 17) Because he was man too. Jesus and God are not exactly identical.
And no one has even attempted to explain what John meant when he said under inspiration No man has seen God at any time. Please provide me with the verse (again? [so I don't have to dig for it]) and I'll give it a go.
The incarnation was not something the apostles or Jesus taught...it came much later by the very men who were killing their christian brothers for not believing the new teaching that they themselves introduced with the help of emperor constantine...a pagan worshiper. It was interpreted... kinda like a young earth, or not receiving blood, or a lot of the other components of religious dogma.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 254 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 7:57 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 262 by Peg, posted 04-02-2010 9:05 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 257 of 492 (553248)
04-02-2010 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 255 by cavediver
04-02-2010 8:51 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
I have to say that that is not my impression - for every passage that seems to (ambiguously) read in favour, there is another that reads (quite definitely) against. Yes, you can read between the lines and take away that Jesus is an aspect of God. You can just as (if not far more) easily take away that Jesus is most certainly not God. I would say that there is no way in hell that you can unabiguously take away that Jesus is God. Much like the trinity, for such supposedly important concepts, God is exceptionally (suspiciously) vague on these matters... Yeah, you're right. Its almost as if you can make the Bible say anything. I was under the impression that Peg thought there was nothing in the NT that supported Jesus being divine. I think its been shown that there are some things in there that say it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by cavediver, posted 04-02-2010 8:51 AM | | cavediver has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 266 by Peg, posted 04-03-2010 7:19 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
How else could the Apostle through inspiration made or stated it any clearer. If one does not understand what FORM of God means, he clears it up in the next two phrases, "did not think that EQUALITY with God was something to be GRASPED". You cannot let go of something you ARE NOT HOLDING". Then he says "He emptied himself of the EQUALITY and took on the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men" You cannot empty yourself of something you do not have. but the phrases must be read together as in any proper evaluation of a sentence, correct? In one verse all of Peg contentions concerning Christ are refuted That he is indeed God What verse is that? You should always include them anyways...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 259 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-02-2010 11:17 AM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 294 of 492 (553908)
04-05-2010 4:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 266 by Peg
04-03-2010 7:19 AM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
From Message 262:
thats right....yet if Jesus WAS the father, then everything would be his own will and his comment "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative" is a contradiction. If Jesus was the father, then everything was Jesus will. We don't think Jesus was the Father... he is the Son  Like I said in Message 252:
quote:
It seems that everytime someone shows Biblical references to Jesus' divinity, you claim that he, god the son, is not equivalent to god the father. And sure, there has to be some kind of difference in order for them to be different, but they're still part of the same thing.
...
John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him" Yeah, I'm not sure what John is talking about. But from that same chapter we have this:
quote:
John 1, KJV, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
From Message 266:
please dont get me wrong, i certainly DO believe Jesus was divine. Do you think he was "a" god? As in polytheism? Or was he just divine like an angel or something?
I just dont believe he is Jehovah, the Creator, the God of the OT. Well John says that the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (= Jesus) so therefore, Jesus is God. There's been plenty of passages shown that say that Jesus is God, but yeah, you don't have to believe them if you don't want to.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 266 by Peg, posted 04-03-2010 7:19 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 299 by Peg, posted 04-05-2010 8:06 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 339 of 492 (554444)
04-08-2010 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 335 by jaywill
04-08-2010 2:39 AM
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posting tip
Hey jaywill, You can nest quote boxes! You wrote:
jaywill writes: Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism. Peg: well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism. Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus. Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes: Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Its easier to read like this:
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism.
Peg: well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism. Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus. Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes: Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Also, you can put qs=name to get:
peg writes:
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism. well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism. Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus. Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes: Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
It makes it easier to follow. Like, this one here is hard to know who's saying what:
jaywill writes: Besides, to suggest that John opens his Gospel with a teaching of more than one God would contradict the Son's summary of His mission in His prayer in John 17: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3) Jaywill, i hate to break it to you, but this scitpure you've used shows us two, not one. "You, the only true God AND HIM whom you have sent, Jesus Christ" Just click Peek to see how I did it. And you can put a bunch of them nested like this:
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 335 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 2:39 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 341 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 12:31 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 350 of 492 (554630)
04-09-2010 11:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 343 by Peg
04-08-2010 6:18 PM
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Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
I didnt need JW's to tell me that the apostles never taught the trinity doctrine...i can see it for myself in the catholic encyclopedia. So tell me, if the trinity teaching didnt come from Paul or any of the other apostles, Who's word are you really learning from? How is that any different that needing Peter's letters, or Revelations, to properly interpret the Old Testament? You should be asking yourself the same thing...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 343 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 6:18 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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