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Author Topic:   Consciousness, thoughts anyone?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 4 of 42 (546979)
02-15-2010 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dimebag
02-14-2010 9:51 PM


2. What consciousness is, its nature, how it can be defined.
Well - naturally it would take a book to cover this in the kind of detail that the topic demands. I think that by the time we've finished defining it, the other two questions you ask will be more readily apparent.
The best description I can offer at the moment is that consciousness is the mental conceptualization of the self. This probably means most things with a brain are somewhat conscious. Our consciousness is given another layer of abstraction courtesy of language and an additional hardware acceleration courtesy of our PFC.
2. Why is consciousness required by our brain, when similar outcomes could be achieved (apparently) through a non conscious process.
In evolution, we talk quite a bit about 'spandrels'. These are structures which don't have a function themselves, but seem to be universal. That's not a good definition. The colour of bones is (as far as I am aware) universally white. This isn't because bones being white is required, its just that the material they are made of is white...but if they were black they'd function just the same. In fact, I've never seen any of my own bones so maybe....
So consciousness may be a side effect of having the prefrontal cortex and language centres etc that we do.
quote:
A spandrel (less often spandril or splaundrel) is the space between two arches or between an arch and a rectangular enclosure.
As per wiki. If you build a normal set of stairs, you create a gap under the stairs. You can put that gap to good use, but it would be silly to consider what use the spandrel serves in helping you get upstairs. Consciousness might be like that, so if it turns out to be entirely useless at helping us have grand children - then we shouldn't necessarily despair (scratching heads is still permitted).
1. How is consciousness produced by the various parts of the brain
Again a difficult question. I see this as like asking how a symphony is formed by the various parts of the orchestra. Each part of the brain is trying to make sure whatever it specialises in is given the correct attention. At the beginning of this process it's just a noise, but each part learns how to influence the body (ie., the conductor) in such a way as to influence the other parts of the brains in a fashion that is to the advantage of the brain part.
The idea being that the parts eventually come together in unison, all working towards a largely agreed upon set of goals and purpose. That collection of goals and purposes is constructed in a serial narrative in the context of memory and prediction, and that narrative is consciousness.
So I'm kind of on Dennet's side of the argument, but I'm rather rusty on the topic.
Welcome to EvC dimebag...are you a Pantera fan?

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 Message 1 by Dimebag, posted 02-14-2010 9:51 PM Dimebag has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by onifre, posted 02-15-2010 3:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 42 (546993)
02-15-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by onifre
02-15-2010 3:18 PM


Dennett and Chalmers
Would you agree however that what we call "consciousness" would not and could not be acheived without a sensory system? My point is only that its not so much "something with a brain" that can experience consciousness. It has more to do with having a sensory system, and, a central nervous system.
Would you agree?
That's an interesting question. My intuition doesn't agree, but I am really not qualified to give authoratative answers at all.
If we knew how general anaesthetics work, that might help. Do they make you lose consciousness because of the sensory shutdown?
Aren't there medical conditions that leave people as 'floating consciousnesses', with nothing coming in from the outside world?
I guess that would require a sense of passing time - which might be argued to be a sense.
My only issue with Dennett is that, well, he simply does away with the problem of subjectivity, making the hard problem of consciousness go away. He claims that the idea of qualia and related phenomenal notions of the mind are not coherent concepts.
He doesn't do away with subjectivity. His entire point about qualia is that they are just a series of 'seems to me' discriminations about the environment.
If it was only parts coming together in unison, then it gives rise to the possibility of the philosophical zombie. Even though Dennett disagrees with the zombie scenario.
Dennett says that technically he thinks we are all zombies If memory serves when he talks in details about them he suggests that zombies are no different than us in his theory and that the problem with the concept is that it assumes there is a difference to conclude there must be a difference!
Many of his critics, like David Chalmers, argue that "Dennett's argument misses the point of the inquiry by merely re-defining consciousness as an external property and ignoring the subjective aspect completely."
Everyone's critics argue that their opponents are in error Chalmer's critics, like Dennett, argue that Chalmers ends up with the Cartesian theatre (I'm not sure if that is Dennett's argument, though I wouldn't be surprised if that's where it terminates).
So I wonder if you also take the position that subjective experiences and qualia are not coherent concepts because it presupposes objectivity?
I don't reject that subjective experience exists, though I do agree that qualia is ultimately incoherent as a concept. I have not seen Dennett suggest that 'subjective experience' is not a coherent concept. Dennett just says that what a person reports as being their experience may not necessarily reflect the actual experience they are reporting.
So Dennett (rightly, I think) suggests that subjective reports are not the only evidence we should be using to study consciousness, but if we treat subjective reports to the methodology of heterophenomonology and not just relying on our own subjective judgements (Descartes self-examination method) on what consciousness is.
are you a Pantera fan?
That was my second thought.
Actually that was my second thought - I only know what a dimebag is because of Pantera. The term, for obvious reasons, is not common in the UK

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 Message 5 by onifre, posted 02-15-2010 3:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dimebag, posted 02-15-2010 8:26 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 02-16-2010 3:29 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 21 of 42 (547138)
02-16-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
02-16-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Dennett and Chalmers
Important stuff first:
Ah yeah, I forget the monetary difference. What's the equivalent to the street name "dimebag" in the UK?
We have the less creative 'ten bag' or 'twenty bag'. It's fallen out of fashion now but we would go:
teenth or a Louis (1/16 of ounce - think French kings)
a henry (1/8 of ounce (English king))
daughter (1/4)
Loz (1 ounce)
But most of our dealers are Arabs and Pakistani so 'ryhming slang' died out and we just have to go literal most of the time.
I would be reluctant to agree that a person being born and not experiencing reality with their senses would be considered "conscious." Because really, what would they be conscious of?
I would also be reluctant. There is a sort of self-referential quality to consciousness so one could be aware of one's existence but I don't think anyone can confidently declare if it possible to become conscious under those conditions.
We are both working off memory, but I recall he specifically suggesting that the premise fails to be established. Like you suggest, that there is an assumtion on there being a difference, but that is because he believes the subjective aspect of consciousness is not coherent concepts.
I'll dig out 'Consciousness Explained' and re-familiarise myself with the outline, watch a few of his lectures and try and regurgitate it later

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 Message 18 by onifre, posted 02-16-2010 3:29 PM onifre has not replied

  
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