THE END OF EVOLUTION?

I am going along with your argument here - You seem to be saying that information can result in a decrease in entropy?How does this work in terms of energy?

You are going to need to supply some context here. The addition of a single base to a DNA strand is not thermodynamically favorable so it requires the addition of a high energy ATP molecule (the conversion of an ATP to an ADP if memory serves). Energy has to be put into the system to link each base together.However, the change in entropy is the same for DNA strands of equal length. It requires the same change in entropy to copy a DNA strand without errors as it does to include mutations if the strands are the same length. Insertions and deletions require neglibile amounts of energy compared to extension of DNA through polymerase activity. I really can't see how changes in the genome of a species over time can not happen while faithful copying of DNA can. If evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics then so does the replication of a single cell or a single strand of DNA.

This whole concept is a religious, not a scientific, one.Its origin is in "the fall" -- following the Adam and Eve/apple myth.The religious belief that mankind was once perfect, until sin entered the world, and that the genome is degenerating since that event is the source of the second law of thermodynamics nonsense.There is no science there--its all religious belief trying to force scientific facts to conform to dogma.But for those who believe, no stretch of the data seems to be too much if it makes that data conform to dogma.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Lucy, it seems that you (and a few others) on this topic really have a vague idea of the 2LoT. Here is a link to a page that delves into what the term entropy is really in reference to in the 2LoT. I hope this clears things up a bit. Perhaps what is really changing is your perception of what the ToE is?Edited by Michamus, : still learning the dBCodes

One covers a time period of 50,000 years, with this key caveat by the conductor of the research:"The technology can't detect anything beyond about 2,000 years ago".The article from Time is only discussing the past century or two, so it's arguments apply exclusively to the time period the techniques used in the first study can say nothing about. They don't contradict each other - they're looking at different things.It's true that at least one of the authors of the study publishing in PNAS, Henry Harpending, would disagree with the Time article. To complete the quote above:"The technology can't detect anything beyond about 2,000 years ago, but we see no sign of [human evolution] slowing down. So I would suspect it is continuing,"but this is his personal suspicion - he's not pretending it's established by their research.

Coyote writes:

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But for those who believe, no stretch of the data seems to be too much if it makes that data conform to dogma.

Michamus writes:

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Lucy, it seems that you (and a few others) on this topic really have a vague idea of the 2LoT. Here is a link to a page that delves into what the term entropy is really in reference to in the 2LoT. I hope this clears things up a bit.

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caffiene writes:

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but this is his personal suspicion - he's not pretending it's established by their research.

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1. Percy, where does matter acquire intelligence?
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2. The connection is obvious, laws apply.
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   and;
   Chemistry is reactional, it obey all laws.
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3. Percy, there are threads that deal with bible study, this is a science thread.
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4. Laws affect everything.
5. The cell has reproduced 73 000 000 times in 200 000 years, which is stretching things a bit, I think. But the ability of the cell to reproduce with its intended information is amazing and must have some mathematical explanation.
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   How does it work in terms of energy?
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   We're all looking for a unified theory.

OK, I'll get to my point after dealing with the critisism.

1. Percy writes:

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   My post said that all matter must obey the laws of our universe, and the fact that some of this matter possesses intelligence cannot overcome those laws. Your response is a non sequitur.
2. PaulK writes:

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   So where's the connection ?
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   But you are going to have to get deeply into the chemistry to get anywhere with it.
3. Percy writes:

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   The requirement of Biblical inerrancy blinds creationists to the real evidence
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4. Theodoric writes:

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   How many times must you be shown that that the 2nd law has no bearing on the human genome
5. Straggler writes:

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   I am going along with your argument here - You seem to be saying that information can result in a decrease in entropy?
How does this work in terms of energy?

I think you meant 2LoT. As already explained, being imbued with intelligence does not make it possible to violate the natural laws of our universe, including 2LoT. That you are even asking this question makes clear how mistaken is your understanding of 2LoT, leading to the next comment you addressed to me: My comment was about why creationists like yourself have so much trouble getting science right, in this case 2LoT.The topic of this thread had shifted slightly from 2LoT to how poorly you understand it. The discussion can't really move forward while you're in denial and being evasive about this.There are many different ways to describe 2LoT, but one that has much direct application to the real world is that the entropy of 2LoT is a measure of the ability of a system to do work. The lower the entropy, the greater the ability of the system to do work.For example, say you have a gallon of gasoline in one container, and in another you have the all the exhaust from a car that traveled as far as it could on a gallon of gasoline. Which container possesses the greater ability to do work? The container of gasoline, right? Therefore the container of gasoline possesses much lower entropy than the container of exhaust gases.These are the kinds of questions that 2LoT can help you answer, and the answers have nothing to do with intelligence, at least not beyond the simple fact that creatures with intelligence are as bound by the laws of thermodynamics as everything else in the universe. Right, so I understand that you haven't gotten to your point yet, but your point will have no value if it's based upon an improper understanding of 2LoT. First understand 2LoT, then try to make your point.--Percy

To deal only with the point addressed to me:

quote:

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2. The connection is obvious, laws apply.

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In other words you are evading the issue with a vague "answer" because you don't know of any connection between the papers and the 2LoT.For your information, the reason that you don't know of any is that there isn't one.

You keep on making these big sweeping statements, but still have provided nothing to back them up. I really want to know the mechanism, and the how, that 2LOT effects evolution. Details please, not just dogmatic statements.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I think the general problem here is that many layman clearly do not understand what entropy really is and how it applies to open and closed systems.It is quoted over and over that entropy is "the measure of order/disorder in a close system". Unfortunately, this definition is so mind boggling vague and watered down that this statement gets abused by nonscientists, non-religious as well as your typical religious creationist. In the background, the real physicists and scientists are shaking there head in disbelief of how much the Laws of Thermodynamics are pulled out of context and misused even by educated science teachers in classrooms.I myself am also a layman, but I have enough knowledge in the subject to know that I am not a subject matter expert in this area and therefore not qualified to give an adequate description of what entropy truely is. However, what I will do is point you to one of the books I am reading, 'The Fabric of the Cosmos' by physicist Brian Green; which goes into great detail into the subject of entropy and its affect on the arrow of time and other quantum physic and cosmological subjects.Read it, as well as other books from renowned physicists such as Stephen Hawking and the like and these will show you how off the mark and misconcieved some of you are in trying distort the concept of entropy to support your ideas of how you think the cosmos and life in general operates.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Why is it that a person like me with so little applied understanding of the sciences can argue against the belief of so many scientists?Percy, your spent fuel is no longer any good for the combustion engine, but it's fuel for the plants that will eventually fuel your engine again. But what's that got to do with the 2nd law?All the laws of thermodynamics are easily understood, that's because they make sense and can be seen to work.There are people on this thread trying to make out that the 2nd law is as hard to understand as the TOE.A stone sits on the ground because that's where it's at equilibrium with its environment. Lift it up and it will eventually drop down again. It's that simple.But the point of this thread.One study says that the human genome has become homogeneous. That is what you would expect if there were more than a single set of genetic instructions and those sets were all put into a pot, according the the 2nd law. Just like if you mix black paint with white paint it turns gray.The second study or assertation by the grand pubahs is that evolution is 100 times faster than in the past.One of the most important properties of the genetic program is its ability to withstand change of its information. That corresponds to its inherent code. Take a Hamming code for example, the greater the checking the more likely the intended information will be retrieved.So you can get bombardment of high energy particles into the cell nucleus but on most occasions the correct information will still be retrieved.So is evolution increasing? No, it never started there was only ever one human genomic seed with all it's functionality able to express its favored form given its environment.Is the human genome homogenizing? No. It is already homogeneous, it expresses itself according to its environment. You move up to the north pole your great grandchildren will reduce there melanin expression, move onto the equator, they will regain it. It's already there.The only reason evolutionists can be so greatly at odds only speaks of the their theory.God is to an atheist as a cop is to a thief.

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There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything. blz paskal

Lucy, you do know that perpetual motion machine doesn't work,right? (it's because of the 2LOT btw) Obviously you wouldn't have said this if you understood the 2LOT.

Why is it that evolutionists try to complicate something that is so simple?

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There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything. blz paskal

Because it's not as simple as you believe it to be. Although, I'd agree that the 2LoT is a pretty simple concept, you're just a few puzzle pieces short of seeing the picture.In teh example of the fuel vs exhaust, while some of that exhaust can potentially be used by plants to make more of that fuel (and that's oversimplified to a degree that makes me cringe), the actual energy content of the exhaust is lower than that of the fuel. The plants can only use the exhaust mass to make more fuel with the additional input of energy from the sun. It's the external energy source provided by the sun that allows the entropy of the plants to decrease.It's all about potential energy - like when you hold a rock above the ground. The rock has potential energy, and if dropped it will perform work. But once it's at rest on the ground, its potential energy content is decreased, meaning the entropy of the rock-ground system is increased. The only way for the rock to regain potential energy (and thus decrease entropy) is for an external energy source to provide that energy - typically in the form of you picking up the rock again.It's a very simple concept, but energy doesn't just flow around in an infinite circle. Whenever work is performed, energy is "lost" as heat. It doesn't disappear (you cannot destroy energy), but it's no longer usable for performing work, meaning entropy is increased. The only way to decrease entropy is through an external energy source. In the case of teh Earth and life, this external energy source is the sun.When Son Goku replied to you regarding perpetual motion machines (where work is performed infinitely in a closed system, a violation of thermodynamics), he was referring to your example of fuel exhaust being used for the creation of new fuel. If the system is closed, that would be impossible - without the input of new energy from the sun, the cycle of exhaust > plant > fuel > exhaust is a perpetual energy machine, and a violation of thermodynamics.Does that help at all?Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.