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Author
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Topic: The Pope's Faulty Thesis (in regards to Islam)
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 75 (350045)
09-18-2006 4:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Tusko
09-18-2006 7:57 AM
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Reading the speech I simply do not see the support for that. It was an unfortunate example but I do not see any attack on Islam.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 7:57 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 5:52 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 10 of 75 (350070)
09-18-2006 6:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Tusko
09-18-2006 5:52 PM
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What I THINK I see is something a bit more insidious than that: I think I see a thesis (that Christianity is somehow more compatable with rationality than some other religion) supported not by pursuasive evidence, but instead by a cynical provocation. Again though, reading the speech I simply do not see that assertion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 5:52 PM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:16 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 75 (350081)
09-18-2006 6:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Tusko
09-18-2006 6:16 PM
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1) Are we agreed that the pope says that he thinks that Christianity is more compatable with rationality than Islam? No.
2) If so, are we agreed that this is problematic for at least one of the following reasons? i) It was Muslim scholars who preserved many classical works of European philosophy ii) It was the Enlightenment, and not the Catholic church (see Gallileo) which should take credit for the blossoming of rational thought in the modern age iii) If he's so into rationality why does he support ID? I think he would agree with most of what you said and I also have not seen where he supports ID.
3) Are we agreed that after the cartoon saga it has become painfully obvious that there are plentiful crazies out there who love to do their crazy thing when someone is percieved to slight the prophet? Yes.
4) Are we agreed that to many people who hear about this story in the West, it won't be the questionable nature of the pope's argument that will be the thing that leaves a lasting impression, but instead the TV pictures of hardcore Islamists going crazy for the camera? Yes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:16 PM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:56 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 75 (350093)
09-18-2006 7:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Tusko
09-18-2006 6:56 PM
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First on the issue of ID, please read the recent In The News thread Message 1. The Vaticans position seems to be more one of theist evolution than of ID. I think you would find the Pope in complete agreement that forced conversions by any religion are wrong, and that includes Christianity. I find it significant that he includes the Qur'an as one of the three "Rules of Life". He then goes on and in the next paragraph address the line that has caused so much consternation. I believe he royaly screwed up in the example he chose. I do NOT believe that there was any intent though to show Islam as less reasonable than Christianity. He even preceeded the statement with the phrase "Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded (emphasis in the Vatican document), on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying:..." I do not think he does claim that Christianity is more rational than Islam. That was NOT what the speech was about, rather the speech seems to me to be a call declaring that reason must be part of religion, that any religion that denies the voice of reason as shown by science is flawed. That includes Christianity and in particular, Roman Catholicism.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:56 PM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 5:06 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 25 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 5:22 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 75 (350243)
09-19-2006 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Tusko
09-19-2006 5:06 AM
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That whole section is presented in the context of a historical dialog that took place around 1391 and as he admits, recorded from one point of view. He is leading up to a major discussion on the relationship between Religion and Reason, a point he begins to develop and elaborate on in the next paragraph.
At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 5:06 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 6:11 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Classic disconnect.
ThingsChange writes: I am surprised that the liberals are so supportive of the illegals, who are almost all Catholic. So, get ready to hear more about the Pope over time, as the population shifts. The way that liberals attack Christians and conservatives is good evidence that very different cultures clash (not to mention history is full of division among different cultures). Here is a classic example of what the Pope is speaking out against. This quote shows someone who is disconnected from reason, totally out of touch with reason to the point where he cannot see the contradictions in his own words. Here the author claims that some imaginary group he labels as "liberals" attacks Christians and in the same breath claims they support Catholics. It is exactly that religious mindset shown in Message 28 that the Pope is speaking about in the address.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by ThingsChange, posted 09-19-2006 7:15 AM | | ThingsChange has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 44 of 75 (350449)
09-19-2006 6:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Tusko
09-19-2006 6:11 PM
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I can see where you might gather that, but feel that he carries it forward to deal specifically with Christianity today as opposed to Islam. Beginning with:
Pope BENEDICT XVI writes: The thesis that the critically purified Greek heritage forms an integral part of Christian faith has been countered by the call for a dehellenization of Christianity - a call which has more and more dominated theological discussions since the beginning of the modern age. he goes on to explain where he sees the threat today, and his discussion is with Christian Theology.
The thesis that the critically purified Greek heritage forms an integral part of Christian faith has been countered by the call for a dehellenization of Christianity - a call which has more and more dominated theological discussions since the beginning of the modern age. and summing it up in:
The scientific ethos, moreover, is - as you yourself mentioned, Magnificent Rector - the will to be obedient to the truth, and, as such, it embodies an attitude which belongs to the essential decisions of the Christian spirit. The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application. While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them. We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 6:11 PM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by Tusko, posted 09-20-2006 8:58 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 55 of 75 (350697)
09-20-2006 1:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Tusko
09-20-2006 8:58 AM
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Yes it was lost but right now I have absolutely no idea what it was. Sorry bout that. LOL I think our biggest difference has to do with what as individuals we preceive to be the substance of the speech. I agree and have always agreed and imagine right now that he would agree that including the discussion from 1391 was a mistake. But was it central to the speech as a whole? The talk as a whole was almost 4000 words, 17 paragraphs. Except for the section where he quotes from a 1391 discouse, where he also states that it was recorded by only one side and so possibly biased, and where he points out that what is said seems to be presented "with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded", he deals with Christianity. I would like to point out a few things I see as significant. First, he is addresssing the Sciences, that part of a collegium in the classic senses. Second, the thrust of the whole speech is on the importance of reason in religion. Third, he shows concern about how the Christian Church behaved in the past as well as pointing to modern trends that seem to be going on today. I think the talk was intended to begin a discussion of the place of religion, a charge that theology must be based in reason and not blind to the world we live in. Also, as a Theologian, I believe he is saying that the two lines, science and theology, address two distinct areas and that both are essential but each must be based on reason.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Tusko, posted 09-20-2006 8:58 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by Tusko, posted 09-22-2006 5:06 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 58 of 75 (351419)
09-22-2006 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Tusko
09-22-2006 5:06 PM
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I think the church has been less than reasonable on many occasions in history and has instead relied on its power to partially or wholly silence reasonable voices. I imagine that the Pope would agree with you.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Tusko, posted 09-22-2006 5:06 PM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by Tusko, posted 09-22-2006 5:31 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Ra Ra Radicals;
Thank you sir.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by Rascaduanok, posted 05-04-2007 3:11 PM | | Rascaduanok has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Ra Ra Radicals; (re: Islamic Statements Against Terrorism)
We have some ongoing threads dealing with some of the factors that lead to the current situation in the Middle East. They can be found at Message 1 and another at Message 1 and would love to have you join in and contribute.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Other Threads
I read your thread on the barbarity of Christianity before I joined. Sheesh. Now I will have to go back and see what I said.  While Fundamentalism seems to be on the rise these days in all of the major religions, I hope we can encourage more contributions from the moderate POV as well.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Rascaduanok, posted 05-05-2007 10:54 AM | | Rascaduanok has replied |
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