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Author | Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Sorry to interrupt the flow, but is it acceptable to go back to the question of the OP?
quote: I'll just present one contradiction in this post, the date of the start of the Christian Church. According to the Bible, the Christian Church began at the Feast of Pentecost, 50 days after Christs' crucifixion, as detailed in Acts 2. Note that in Mt 16:18, Jesus said that His Church was still future:
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. But according to the Book of Mormon, it began much earlier. Mosiah 18:17, supposedly written about 145 BC, says:
And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church. [I can post more. But do they necessarily have to be from the Book of Mormon? It's easier to find contradictions between the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants, if that's an acceptable source.]
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
According to the Bible, Jesus was born in Bethlehem:
Mt 2:1
and this had been predicted by the prophet Micah:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, in the time of King Herod, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem ... Micah 5:2 As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah— from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past. But the Book of Mormon says Jesus was born in Jerusalem:
Alma 7:10
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
According to the Old Testament, priests of Israel were exclusively from the tribe of Levi (who was one of the sons of Jacob):
Num 3:6-10 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him. ... You are to assign the Levites to Aaron and his sons; they will be assigned exclusively to him out of all the Israelites. So you are to appoint Aaron and his sons, and they will be responsible for their priesthood; but the unauthorized person who comes near must be put to death. But according to the Book of Mormon, Jacob himself and Joseph (one of Jacob's sons and a brother of Levi) were priests. (These men could not be priests according to the Bible.)
2 Nephi 5:26
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
The Bible says that there was darkness for three hours at the time of Jesus' crucifixion:
Mt 27:45--Now from noon until three, darkness came over all the land. Mk 15:33--Now when it was noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.
But the Book of Mormon says that this darkness extended for three days:
Helaman 14:20--But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
3 Nephi 8:3--And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
The Bible says that we are saved by God's grace, through faith alone, not due to any works, achievements, or efforts on our part:
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast. But the Book of Mormon says that our works are necessary:
2 Nephi 25:23
and Mormon doctrine clarifies that this means God's grace plus our works.
for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:You are correct; the context of Num 3 is the specific duties of Aaron and his descendents regarding the priesthood. However, in this discussion it is made clear that the Levites are the exclusive priests of Israel. Jacob and his other sons could not be priests, contrary to the claims of the Book of Mormon. For more support of this (that only the Levites are priests of Israel) you could look at the division of the tribes and the duties of the Levites throughout Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:How so? quote:Good works are a result of salvation, not a means of it. I quoted Eph 2:8-9 earlier. Read the next verse (Eph 2:10), which explains this and is consistent with Js 2:20. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:What do you mean by "land of Jerusalem?" Where is this phrase used (either in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon) and what is its context? Jerusalem was/is a city, not a land. Bethlehem is a separate, different city. The two cities are not the same. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Not quite. James seems to be saying that one who claims to have faith but has no works is not saved. This is consistent with what Paul says in Eph 2: good works is a result, but not a means, of salvation. But this discussion of James is getting off-topic. In your OP you asked for "examples of the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible." The Book of Mormon (and Mormon doctrine) say that the means of salvation is God's grace plus one's own works. Paul in Eph 2:8-10, says the means of salvation is God's grace and not one's own works. This constitutes a contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, irrespective of how James should be interpreted. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : clarified what I meant by "getting off-topic"
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Sorry--I missed the quote and source earlier. Interesting quote, but I'm having trouble verifying it. I only own the abridged ANET, not the full one. The translation of EA that I find online here has no mention of "Bethlehem." It does have the phrase "land of Jerusalem," but the context does not clarify what this means. Are there any biblical or Book of Mormon uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," or is this phrase restricted to the El Amarna letters? I suspect that this is a rarely used phrase. If so, it is a stretch to claim that this occurrance of "Jerusalem" in the Book of Mormon really means "land of Jerusalem." Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:So do you propose that there was three hours of darkness in Palestine and three days of darkness in the Americas? Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I didn't realize this; i apparently read the passage too quickly. Your claim does seem to be supported by the context. quote:This would eliminate the contradiction. Contradiction 3 is not a good argument.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Except that John the Baptist never claimed that the "church of Christ" had begun. Jesus later claimed that it had not begun. Yet the Book of Mormon said that in about 145 BC "they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward." At the time when Mt 16:18 was spoken, had Christ's church begun or not? The Bible says "no" but the Book of Mormon says "yes," a contradiction.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Agreed--I wasn't clear and have now clarified my post. What I meant was that the discussion of how to interpret James was diverting us from discussing the clear contradiction between the Book of Mormon and Paul.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I've done a bit more searching on the phrase "land of jerusalem" and found a few things:
1) There are indeed some modern scholarly uses of the phrase. But these seem to refer either to "land" in the sense of "real estate" or "geography," not in the sense of a territory or region. 2) The El-Amarna letters seem to have a few references to the "land of Jerusalem." There are two in EA 286 and one in EA 287. There is also a reference to the "territory of Jerusalem" in EA 290, mentioning Bet-Ninib as a city in this territory. (This is apparently what you mentioned in Message 83 but with the wrong tablet number and with the older, less preferred translation Bit-Lahmi.)(The El-Amarna letters are available online here and here) The El-Amarna letters do seem to use "land of Jerusalem" in the sense of "territory" or "region," supporting your contention. And the Book of Mormon also uses "land of Jerusalem" in a few places, perhaps with a similar connotation of "territory" or "region" (though I'm not fully convinced of this yet). However, remember that the El Amarna letters were written by Canaanites in the Late Bronze period (14th century BC). The phrase "land of Jerusalem" is not found in Scripture. There is no evidence that it was used in Palestine after the Israelite conquest. So where did Lehi (7 centuries later) or Joseph Smith come up with the phrase "land of Jerusalem?" What did they mean by it? Is there any historical or linguistic connection between Book of Mormon usage and the El Amarna tablets? I'd say any connection is extremely doubtful. Further, in the passage in question:
quote:the phrase used is "Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers", not the "land of Jerusalem." Even if the latter is demonstrated to mean "territory" or "region" in the Book of Mormon, does the former have the same meaning, and how would you establish this? It seems to me that the former has more the sense of "real estate" or "possession." Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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