Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,910 Year: 4,167/9,624 Month: 1,038/974 Week: 365/286 Day: 8/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 76 of 352 (521669)
08-28-2009 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 12:09 AM


non-Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
kbertsche writes:
The Bible says that we are saved by God's grace, through faith alone, not due to any works, achievements, or efforts on our part:
This is too easy.
quote:
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, Faith without works is dead?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:09 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:00 PM Michamus has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 77 of 352 (521672)
08-28-2009 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by hooah212002
08-28-2009 8:38 AM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
quote:
This verse, and the verses surrounding it, is speaking of who is to guard the Ark of the Covenant, not a general qualification for priesthood.
You are correct; the context of Num 3 is the specific duties of Aaron and his descendents regarding the priesthood. However, in this discussion it is made clear that the Levites are the exclusive priests of Israel. Jacob and his other sons could not be priests, contrary to the claims of the Book of Mormon.
For more support of this (that only the Levites are priests of Israel) you could look at the division of the tribes and the duties of the Levites throughout Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by hooah212002, posted 08-28-2009 8:38 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:17 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 78 of 352 (521674)
08-28-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Michamus
08-28-2009 12:37 PM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
quote:
This is too easy.
How so?
quote:
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, Faith without works is dead?
Good works are a result of salvation, not a means of it. I quoted Eph 2:8-9 earlier. Read the next verse (Eph 2:10), which explains this and is consistent with Js 2:20.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 12:37 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:07 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 79 of 352 (521675)
08-28-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Michamus
08-28-2009 12:29 PM


Re: Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
quote:
Which was within the Land of Jerusalem
What do you mean by "land of Jerusalem?" Where is this phrase used (either in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon) and what is its context?
Jerusalem was/is a city, not a land. Bethlehem is a separate, different city. The two cities are not the same.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 12:29 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:02 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 80 of 352 (521752)
08-28-2009 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 1:03 PM


Re: The non-Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
Refer to my source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:03 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:33 AM Michamus has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 81 of 352 (521755)
08-28-2009 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 1:00 PM


Re: non-Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
kbertsche writes:
Good works are a result of salvation, not a means of it.
Spoken like a true Lutheran.
If this is true, then why is faith "dead" without works? Seems to me that the author is saying to believe alone will not save you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:00 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:15 AM Michamus has not replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 82 of 352 (521758)
08-28-2009 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 12:55 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Sorry, I seem to have skipped Message 56. My apologies.
kbertsche writes:
Jacob himself and Joseph (one of Jacob's sons and a brother of Levi) were priests
Seems you have your names confused. Jacob and Joseph were Nephi's younger brothers, and not the Jacob and Joseph of the OT.
quote:
2 Nephi 5
6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren...
Mosiah 29:42 and Alma 4:20 infer that Lehi, and his lineage were operating under the high priesthood, or Melchizedek Priesthood, which is not bound by lineage, but conferred by god.
Edited by Michamus, : Inserted last snippet for follow through

How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority.
-unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:55 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:49 AM Michamus has not replied
 Message 93 by kbertsche, posted 08-30-2009 7:18 PM Michamus has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 83 of 352 (521768)
08-29-2009 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Michamus
08-28-2009 9:07 PM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
quote:
If this is true, then why is faith "dead" without works? Seems to me that the author is saying to believe alone will not save you.
Not quite. James seems to be saying that one who claims to have faith but has no works is not saved. This is consistent with what Paul says in Eph 2: good works is a result, but not a means, of salvation.
But this discussion of James is getting off-topic. In your OP you asked for "examples of the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible." The Book of Mormon (and Mormon doctrine) say that the means of salvation is God's grace plus one's own works. Paul in Eph 2:8-10, says the means of salvation is God's grace and not one's own works. This constitutes a contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, irrespective of how James should be interpreted.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : clarified what I meant by "getting off-topic"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:07 PM Michamus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ochaye, posted 08-29-2009 6:29 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 84 of 352 (521769)
08-29-2009 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Michamus
08-28-2009 9:02 PM


Re: Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
quote:
Refer to my source.
Sorry--I missed the quote and source earlier.
Interesting quote, but I'm having trouble verifying it. I only own the abridged ANET, not the full one. The translation of EA that I find online here has no mention of "Bethlehem." It does have the phrase "land of Jerusalem," but the context does not clarify what this means.
Are there any biblical or Book of Mormon uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," or is this phrase restricted to the El Amarna letters? I suspect that this is a rarely used phrase. If so, it is a stretch to claim that this occurrance of "Jerusalem" in the Book of Mormon really means "land of Jerusalem."
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:02 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Michamus, posted 08-29-2009 10:50 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 85 of 352 (521770)
08-29-2009 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Michamus
08-28-2009 12:33 PM


Re: Contradiction 4: Length of Darkness
quote:
You do realize Helaman and Nephi are referring to their own land, and not the middle east... right?
So do you propose that there was three hours of darkness in Palestine and three days of darkness in the Americas?
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 12:33 PM Michamus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 12:28 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 86 of 352 (521771)
08-29-2009 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Michamus
08-28-2009 9:17 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
quote:
Seems you have your names confused. Jacob and Joseph were Nephi's younger brothers, and not the Jacob and Joseph of the OT.
I didn't realize this; i apparently read the passage too quickly. Your claim does seem to be supported by the context.
quote:
Mosiah 29:42 and Alma 4:20 infer that Lehi, and his lineage were operating under the high priesthood, or Melchizedek Priesthood, which is not bound by lineage, but conferred by god.
This would eliminate the contradiction. Contradiction 3 is not a good argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:17 PM Michamus has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 87 of 352 (521772)
08-29-2009 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Michamus
08-28-2009 12:17 PM


Re: Contradiction 1: Start of Church
quote:
What happened with Alma in the Book of Mormon is no different than what John the Baptist did. Alma was clearly establishing the Church of God/Christ in preparation for the coming messiah.
Except that John the Baptist never claimed that the "church of Christ" had begun. Jesus later claimed that it had not begun. Yet the Book of Mormon said that in about 145 BC "they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward."
At the time when Mt 16:18 was spoken, had Christ's church begun or not? The Bible says "no" but the Book of Mormon says "yes," a contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 12:17 PM Michamus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 12:06 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5269 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 88 of 352 (521786)
08-29-2009 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by kbertsche
08-29-2009 12:15 AM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
quote:
But this is getting off-topic. In your OP you asked for "examples of the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible."
What could be more on topic than the concept of justification by works? The message of justification by faith is the whole purpose of Scripture from before Abraham onwards, and the BoM contradicts Scripture on that very doctrine. Though the use of any book as Scripture beyond what is recognisably apostolic is impossible for Christians, as we have seen.
The BoM came as a more subtle, sotto voce re-statement of the Canons of Trent that assert with official certainty that justification is by works, not by faith, as those troublemakers Luther and Wycliffe had stated. The necessary works in Catholicism always involve an approved human intermediary, and are different in Mormonism, but nevertheless Mormonism stands as diametrically opposed to Christ as any pope does, or as does any mullah who insists on the obligation to observe the five pillars of Islam. It hardly matters how one labels poison, unless it's with 'Poison'. The means of one's justification defines who one is- even whether one ultimately exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:15 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:28 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 89 of 352 (521810)
08-29-2009 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by kbertsche
08-29-2009 12:33 AM


Re: Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
kbertsche writes:
Are there Book of Mormon uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem,"
What's kind of funny is the very verse in Alma that you quoted makes the distinction that they are referring to Jerusalem as a land, rather than City.
quote:
Alma 7
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers
If you think that is a little iffy, here are some other BoM references:
quote:
1 Nephi 3
9 And I, Nephi, and my brethren took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem.
Not only that, but in the very same book (Alma) it is made clear the distinction between "the land", and "the city".
quote:
Alma 14
23 that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah
Alma 8
6 So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days’ journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah
So the distinction between "land of", and "city of" is quite clear throughout the BoM.
kbertsche writes:
Are there any biblical uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," or is this phrase restricted to the El Amarna letters?
I am not able to find any biblical references in which "land of Jerusalem" is used. The usage is common amongst modern Biblical scholars though, in light of more recently discovered texts.
I am not entirely sure on the credibility of the site, but the distinction between the land of, and city of is made by this Scholar:
Bible-History.com - The "Land of Jerusalem"
Also Robert Eisenmann and Michael Wise, in The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered (1993), discuss one document that they have provisionally named "Pseudo-Jeremiah" (scroll 4Q385). The beginning of the damaged text reads as follows:
quote:
...Jeremiah the Prophet before the Lord
[...w]ho were taken captive from the land of Jerusalem [Eretz Yerushalayim, column 1, line 2] (p. 58).
In their discussion of this text, Eisenmann and Wise elaborate on the significance of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," which they see as an equivalent for Judah (Yehud):
quote:
"Another interesting reference is to the 'land of Jerusalem' in Line 2 of Fragment 1. This greatly enhances the sense of historicity of the whole, since Judah or 'Yehud' (the name of the area on coins from the Persian period) by this time consisted of little more than Jerusalem and its immediate environs." (p. 57)
What is interesting is this term was not known to Biblical scholars prior to the more recent discovery of these ancient texts. With that in mind, it would make it near impossible for Joseph Smith to have used the phrase in proper context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:33 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 2:40 PM Michamus has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 90 of 352 (521824)
08-29-2009 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ochaye
08-29-2009 6:29 AM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
quote:
What could be more on topic than the concept of justification by works? The message of justification by faith is the whole purpose of Scripture from before Abraham onwards, and the BoM contradicts Scripture on that very doctrine.
Agreed--I wasn't clear and have now clarified my post. What I meant was that the discussion of how to interpret James was diverting us from discussing the clear contradiction between the Book of Mormon and Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ochaye, posted 08-29-2009 6:29 AM ochaye has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024