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Author Topic:   Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 38 of 101 (314701)
05-23-2006 5:52 PM


Ignoring the problem
Ok, here is what is really happening in the USA.
Most of the inmates in prison are non-violent drug offenders. They are put in prisons which are run extremely irresponsibly and basically strip them of all their rights. Then they are raped/beaten/etc. by other inmates. Once these non-violent offenders get out they have become hardened violent criminals who are much more likely to commit violent crimes.
1. The drug war is just stupid and is probably most dismal failure amoung domestic programs in modern history (imagine if we spent that money providing people health care). It has done nothing but fill prisons and CREATE violent crime. (I'm not arguing about the morality of drug use or whatever, simply stating the facts about the results of the drug war.)
2. The prison system is not about rehabilitation, as it should be. In fact, prisons more often make people into WORSE criminals than before they entered. Again, I don't care whether you are into revenge, punishment or whatever or not. The fact is that it benefits society to rehabilitate people (when possible) into tax paying citizens instead of having them remain criminals and drain the public coffers.
3. Capital Punishment is useless from a practical and non-moral point of view. It has never been shown to have any effect whatsoever when it comes to deterring crime. In addition, capital punishment costs tax payers far more money than simple life imprisonment.

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 52 of 101 (315182)
05-25-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Malachi-II
05-25-2006 3:58 PM


Re: Reply to Tusko
You should really read my post (post #38).
Capital punishment is useless from a practical standpoint because it has never been shown to have any effect on crime and costs far more money than life imprisonment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Malachi-II, posted 05-25-2006 3:58 PM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Malachi-II, posted 05-26-2006 4:14 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 55 of 101 (315290)
05-26-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Malachi-II
05-26-2006 4:14 AM


Re: Reply to Post #38
Here's a good place to start. Your comments about drug addicts are irrelevent by the way. Any drug addict who is convicted of a violent crime is by definition NOT a non-violent drug offender. I am talking about people who are convincted for possession or something along those linies.
In any case numerous studies have shown that treating drug use as a medical problem and NOT as a law enforcement problem is far more effective (as is done in many european countries)
Prisons, Jails, Probation, and Parole | Drug Policy Facts
http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/poor/ppnapr.html
http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/20/20021.html
I was a little high on my statistics... The percentage of non-violent drug offenders is more in the 25% range. (And good for you for calling me on it... I apologize; I should have done a bit more refreshing of my brain before throwing out the numbers)
But on to the main point: capital punishment.
I am not arguing about whether in theory capital punishment might deter crime... in reality it doesn't.
From: http://soc.enotes.com/does-capital-article
Social scientists have examined the general deterrent effect of capital punishment since the early twentieth century. Early studies, including those by Thorsten Sellin, took two approaches: Some studies compared homicide rates in states with and without capital punishment; others compared homicide rates for states before or after the reintroduction or abolition of capital punishment. Researchers found that murder rates in neighboring states with and without the death penalty were not significantly different. They also found that homicide rates in states did not increase after the abolishment of the death penalty or decrease after the reinstatement of the sanction. More recent comparative studies have come to the same conclusion, supporting Sellin’s contention in 1967 that “the presence of the death penalty in law and practice has no discernible effect as a deterrent to murder.”
So leaving aside all moral implications, I simply don't think capital punishment is a good policy because it doesn't work!
Also from: http://uk.encarta.msn.com/...70630_2/Capital_Punishment.html
In the early 1970s, some published reports purported to show that each execution in the United States deterred eight or more homicides, but subsequent research has discredited this finding. The current prevailing view among criminologists is that no conclusive evidence exists to show that the death penalty is a more effective deterrent to violent crime than long-term imprisonment.
So we really have no evidence that capital punhisment has any deterrent effect on crime.
Now for the second part of the equation... Capital punishment is far more expensive than life imprisonment.
Every major cost study has shown capital punishment to be more expensive than an alternative system where life-imprisonment is the maximum sentence. To see why, note that only a small fraction of the cases that start out as capital trials actually result in a death sentence, and only about 10% of those death sentences result in an execution. The 784 inmates executed (as of June 26th, 2002) since 1976 are only a fraction of the roughly 7,000 death sentences in that time, which sprang from an even larger number of trials.
Yet, all of these cases were more expensive from the beginning, regardless of their final outcome, because they began as capital trials. Death penalty trials are more expensive than ordinary murder trials. They entail more pre-trial preparation time, more attorneys, longer jury selections, more expert witnesses, and a heightened level of due process. They are 3 to 5 times longer, and the defendant is less likely to simply plead guilty to avoid a trial if there is a chance of being executed.
Considering the small percentage of executions that result, these expenses are a burden on the justice system. Yet, doing away with them without also getting rid of capital punishment would be unwise. Since 1976, over 100 people have been released from death row based on newly discovered evidence of their innocence - almost 13% of the number executed!
http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/cappun.htm
and also from: http://www.cybervillage.com/ocs/penalty.htm
No longer solely isolated in the South, the death penalty has become a national phenomenon. There are more people on death row now than at any other time in the nation's history. (Death Penalty Information Center)
Time is money. The death penalty is so monetarily exorbitant due to the fact that capital cases take longer at every stage and require a vast amount resources for both the prosecution and defense. In a North Carolina study, 24 principle areas were identified that can account for the enormous expenses. These included such areas as an increased amount of pre-trial motions, a separate penalty phase conducted in front of a jury (of which it could take up to eight weeks to select that jury), a more thorough review of the case on direct appeal, a greater likelihood that there will be a full briefing and argument on federal habeas corpus petition, and more preparation, and a longer clemency proceeding. (The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina)
"The North Carolina study estimated that a capital trial takes roughly four times longer than a non-capital murder trial. Based on the data collected by the authors of the North Carolina study, they found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence. Nevertheless, each of these trials had the extra expense associated with death penalty proceedings. The trial costs alone were about $200,000 more for each death penalty imposed than if no death penalty was involved." (Instead of Death Penalty, life Without Parole)
In South Carolina, The Sun News reported that the expenses for death penalty cases are "skyrocketing" due to a state supreme court ruling in which it states that attorneys in death penalty cases deserve reasonable fees. Before the decision, attorneys were limited to a maximum $2,500 fee for each death penalty case. (Death Penalty Information Center) The state's public defenders office spends about $138 defending an average criminal case, but for death penalty cases, the cost soars to over $200,000 each to defend. (Death Penalty Information Center)
Capital crime trials cost an estimated $2.3 million per case. In fact, the death penalty, on the whole, is much more expensive than its closest alternative, life imprisonment with no possibility of parole. The reason behind this, is the fact that capital trials are longer and more expensive at every stage than other murder trials. Pre-trial motions, expert witness investigation, jury selection, and the necessity for two trials, one to establish guilt and the other to determine sentence, make capital cases exceptionally costly, even before the appeals process begins. Moreover, if a defendant is convicted but not given the death sentence, the state will incur the cost of life imprisonment, in addition to the increased trial expenses. (Death Penalty Information Center)
There have been countless studies showing that capital punishment is far more expensive than life imprisonment... yet capital punishment has never been shown to have ANY effect when it comes to deterring crime.
This is all from a practical point of view. I don't care if capital punishment is "moral" or not. It's simply bad policy. It's more expensive and does nothing to solve the problem.
This is one thing liberals get wrong... they argue the moral point, which IMO is irrelevant. You have two sides of the moral debate, but there is no debating that from a practical standpoing capital punishment is simply bad policy. The wasted resources could certainly be better allocated elsewhere

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Malachi-II, posted 05-26-2006 4:14 AM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Malachi-II, posted 05-27-2006 1:12 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied
 Message 75 by Malachi-II, posted 06-28-2006 5:48 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 56 of 101 (315300)
05-26-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Alasdair
05-24-2006 12:53 PM


Re: Difference?
Isn't the main difference between life imprisonment and capital punishment the length of time taken to execute the offender?
However, death by old age aka life imprisonment has the handy dandy attribute that you can stop it at any time, if it turns out the chap was innocent. Nice!
That's a very good point Alasdair... never thought of it that way before.
Nice post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Alasdair, posted 05-24-2006 12:53 PM Alasdair has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 60 of 101 (315676)
05-27-2006 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Malachi-II
05-27-2006 1:12 PM


Re: Reply to Post #55
It sounds like the situtaiton in the UK is far different and maybe a different outlook is necessary. In the US we have the most people in prison of any country in the world as well as the highest percentage of our population.
What do we have to show for it? We have the highest violent crime rate of any western industrialized country and spend the most on law enforcement of any western industrialized country.
It's possible that the UK is quite different... but capital punisment has proven to be a dismal failure in the US

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Malachi-II, posted 05-27-2006 1:12 PM Malachi-II has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 05-27-2006 9:41 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 81 of 101 (327634)
06-29-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Malachi-II
06-28-2006 5:48 AM


Re: Belated Reply to Post #55
Perhaps you will be kind enough to share your thoughts on the staggering increase in drugs and drug associated crime.
They are poor, their lives suck and they live in bad neighborhoods? Honestly, I don't know.
Of course it's been proven throughout history that prohibition simply creates crime.
I don't care why people take drugs.... All I know is that they do... and as a society we have choices about how to deal with the problem. Is it a criminal or medical problem? Many european countries have been far more successful with drug programs that treat drug use as a medical problem (and these programs are much less expensive).
The drug war is a stupid waste of money... and that's a fact

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Malachi-II, posted 06-28-2006 5:48 AM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Malachi-II, posted 06-30-2006 5:17 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
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