|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 6272 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
2) be released from custody on the understanding that if they re-offend they will forfeit all rights of appeal and be put to death. Should a murderer NOT re-offend then there is no punishment for the murder he committed. Dodgy. Or do you mean that if he gets a parking ticket he will be put to death? Does this not open the way for euthansia. Folk who are not likely to commit a capital offence decide to take the same risk as a person donating one of their kidneys and kill a loved one in pain Or kill off a rich parent for the inheritance - knowing that capital crime is not their gig so they are not likely to ever arrive at the gallows How does a person agree to this. Sign a document? Were they in their right mind or were they victims of entrapment "Life or freedom" One would have to be crazy not to take it -so later on one is executed for not being crazy but being human?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
As our debates have demonstrated, the scientific method does very well even though fallible Whatever about the relative merits of a system of evaluating truth it would seem to me that until you have an infallible one then the death penalty should be abolished. You can always overturn a life penalty - not a death one
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You have not taken into account the punishment that a convicted murderer may well suffer in his or her community. Do you think they would have an easy escape? I doubt it. I take the same account of it as an unpunished but convicted murderer might take of it were he to suspect that there would be 'conseqences' in his community. I'd simply move somewhere else. I don't suppose the authorities could prevent that - unless they were prepared to provide round-the-clock security so as to prevent vigilanteism. In your scenario we still have the situation were a) a murderer who doesn't re-commit never pays for his crime.b) if they chose to re-offend the week after release, the person on the receiving end will have been denied the opportunity that 20 years (or whatever life happens to be) might have had on the motivatons of the murderer I should have said in my original message, ”if they re-offend a capital crime. . .’ Far too many murderers in the UK have recommitted capital crimes after early release from prison. Prisons do NOT rehabilitate people. More than 20,000 crimes per month are committed in the UK by people who have been through the prison system. I agree that the prison system isn't a good one. They do not rehabilitate because: a) largely they do not attempt to.b) some people don't want to be rehabilitated. In the case of b) I can't see how you can justify playing God with peoples lives to the extent of immediately releasing a person who has not had any opportunity for rehab that might be provided simply by time changing a persons view. I think that punishment and rehabilitation should form co-central strands of the process. Your own proposal does neither. Neither does it contain any subtlety by way of discretion which would attempt to deal with the myriad levels as to why one person kills another. If you suppose murder is murder is murder then the paedophile who rapes and kills a child would get the same treatment as someone who had been provoked by a beating husband. For example.
Do you have any comparable figures for people who have served prison terms in the US? I don't see that this is relevant to the discussion but no I don't
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
The motive for introducing the subject was primarily to draw attention to the injustices and corruption that is rampant in all so-called civilized societies. Evidence in support of my last sentence is painfully obvious to anyone with guts enough to see it. Me, I'm bible-led. This tells me that civilization has always been injust and corrupt. That there was never a time when it wasn't. Society might swing from one form of injustice and corruption to another but find it we will in any time. The current post-modern model supposes that a man is not truly responsible for what he does: genetic make-up, upbringing, prosperity (or lack thereof), the influence of drugs/drink consumed affecting his ability to discern right from wrong, indeed the blurring of what IS right and wrong - are all ingredients on the pot and lead to the notion that absolute responsibility for a crime cannot be laid soley at the feet of the offender. Once you blur the boundaries thus you open the way to the kind of ludicrous 'judgements' that can be handed down. There is no black and white - just shades of grey. And depending on the judge, jury, current philosophical fad and the skill/cost of an advocate, one offender will recieve a different shade of punishment than the other. The system doesn't seek to rehabilitate - it just doles out varying degrees of punishment according to a shifting sea of what constitutes justice. But your own ideas are equally unbiblical it seems to me. A death sentence for a crime committed can only see man playing God. All the facts can never be known. Even if the fact WERE all known there is no room in this thinking for "he who has not sinned" ...the principle that all deserve the death sentence for their sin...but that grace and mercy are the overriding principles to be invoked - not that anyone gets pulled up to court for adultery these days? Which makes this notion all the more peculiar...
I will go further and suggest that most of us lack the guts or the will to reverse the decline of our glorious species. Glorious species? We certainly don't treat each other like this is what we are. We are capable of the most vicious, cruel and inhumane behaviour of anything that walks this earth - are we not? What you seem to be attempting to do in proposing a death penalty is play God. We are in no position to do so. And whilst we must of necessity seek to do our best so as not to have society fall assunder any more that it already has we must be careful not to assume ourselves to be divine. We should be humble enough to recognise that we are arriving at purely subjective notions as to seriousness. Notions which are heavily influenced by the time in which we live. What was seen as a crime yesterday (murder is murder) is seen otherwise today (murder has shades) and will no doubt be seen as something different tomorrow. Subjective. Therefore we should be circumspect about dealing in absolutes. And there is nothing more absolute than the death sentence. Its so very Eye for an Eye. So very OT (or OTT). So very not "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" If man was half as glorious as you say, his central desire would be that his fallen, yet still glorious brother would somehow be redeemed. That he would come to understand and admit to the error of his ways. And that by this he would be restored to 'glory'. By all means take account of that which influenced him, by all means take account of his poor upbringing. But never let the tools he used in the mechanism of his wrong doing be seen as other than tools to which he applied the force. Punish him by all means - but be prepared to forgive. For we are all in need of it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Was that not a clear demonstration of Our likeness with God? I mean, we have the divine will to make choices. We are free to choose to do what is right or what is not right. Okay? Now for the crunch: Are we, or are we not, obliged to BE as Gods when called upon to deal justly with those who commit heinous crimes against innocent children of our Father? Or will we continue to pass the buck? We were made in the image and likeness of God indeed. We were given, by the divine who chose to do so, free will to choose what was right (obey God) or what was wrong (disobey God). God is the one who decides what is right and wrong. We only get to choose - not to define - what is right and wrong. If we are to define what is right and wrong then we would be like God - not made in his likeness - which is a different thing. This word from the serpent tempting Eve should indicate to us that being like God is NOT how we are to be.
quote: The relationship between God and redeemed man is that of sonship. And adopted sonship at that. When it comes to the monumental decisions to be made in the family, such as whether a person lives or dies, then that should be left up to the Daddy and Mammy. Certainly not the kiddies. Who would leave life and death decisions up to the kids?
innocent Perhaps you could define this word. In a biblical sense I mean
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Content deleted
Edited by iano, : Seeing the wood for the trees..
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I'm sorry if you are not smart enough to see the link, but is that good reason to deny those who are??? I replied to you before seeing this Malachi. We can all take a bit of abuse from those with whom we have formed some kind of relationship with. Those who have demonstrated that they are prepared to work at putting a reasoned case together here and there. Your struggling a bit at the moment in my opinion too - and are unlikely to hold your "I am like God and so can put people to death too" argument. At least not without resorting to insult to bolster what is a questionable scattergun-approach to people who taking the time in attempting to engage with you. No harm in that per se - where it skillfully executed (which it wasn't). But no warrant for this either... I'll extract myself from this discussion thanks.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Iano, the above message was addressed to AdminNosy He might be a pain in the arse at times but I consider the man worthy of respect. And you didn't pay him any in the least. I wouldn't mind the Admin bit - I have a problem with authority myself. But behind the ...Nosy bit sits a person. And if his views are to be dismissed then the right to dismiss must at least attempted to be earned. 60 posts in falls below my own threshold. Its an arbitary thing. Sorry.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
There is an angle on this for which a casual observation might be worth noting. The current situation in the US is bad. Worse that the current situation in the UK. And Ireland. But there is a commonly held axiom held here. And it is that whatever is happening in the States now will arrive on our shores 10-20 years from now. 3 examples should suffice:
I remember a visit to the states 20 years ago where a girl I befriended talked about the relatively common occurance of suicide amongst her peers. I was aghast: suicide? It was unheard of here. Not any more. Now it happens all the time - primarily amongst the young. Similarily the idea of a "drive-by" shooting. 15 years ago and gun crime was nigh on unheard of. Within the last 3 or 4 years wars have erupted between drug gangs and my journalist friend told me recently that it was accepted by the cops that it was simply a question of time before some bystander got sprayed by a coke-maddened crim with a machine pistol during the new craze of drive-by shootings. Two weeks later it happened. Drive-bys are now a common occurance. As more and more guns pour in the frequency of such shooting can be expected to increase. 10 years ago I visited Dallas and my jaw dropped at the sight of the incredibly obesity I saw regularily walking down the street. Obesity has hit Ireland along with McDonalds introducting salads to their menus. Its hitting the young primarily - older peoples eating habits are more established according to the old ways. Now you see fat little kids all over the place and obesity is becoming a real worry The US attempts to deal with problems in various ways and when those problems arrive here we will attempt to deal with them in more or less the same way. Its less that the US is getting it wrong and we're getting it right. Its more that there is simply a time-lapse between us.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024