Congress goes off the deep end

quote:

---

The people I've met in person that are liberals are very annoying. They seem to be idealists.

---

Yeah, those dumb idealists. They never accomplish anything....stupid, annoying idealistic Mother Theresa.

quote:

---

Also, a lot of them are whiny pussies.

---

The whiniest pussies I have even met were conservatives. They complain endlessly about any sort of societal change, they complain endlessly about taxes, they complain endlessly about minorities and women fighting for equal rights, they complain endlessly about having to share anything with anybody.Their sense of entitlement is enormous and all-encompassing. Their unwillingness and distinterest in checking the facts of the stories they are told before accepting them is very nearly absolute among all of the self-identified conservatives I have ever known.On the other hand, being around liberal second and third generation working class Americans for much of my childhood, and liberal academics and liberal innovative small business people in retail for much of my adult life, I have encountered a great many inspired, proactive, intelligent people who put their dreaded "ideals" into practice in their personal and professional lives, often to great success.

quote:

---

Absolutely. We are fighting terrorists. People who will blow themselves up to take out a bunch of innocent civilians. Fuck them. If we have to torture a terrorist to learn the location of a hidden bomb, then torture away

---

So, you don't care if we actually have morals or ethics, you just want to appear to have them?If we resort to torture, then we are no better than the terrorists.I find it interesting that a follower of "The Prince of Peace" would so easily discard the most important Biblical commandment of all; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I take the Golden Rule quite seriously, as an Agnostic. Shame that all of you believers, especially in the government, do not.The reasons we shouldn't torture are threefold;1) because it is morally and ethically wrong.2) because we don't want anyone to do it to us.3) it rarely provides good intelligence.

---

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

quote:

---

Actually, I don't give a shit if they listen to my phone calls.

---

OK.Can I listen in on all of your private phone calls?

quote:

---

The Golden Rule is not going to work against terrorists.

---

Oh, so the golden Rule is optional for a Christian, only appled when convenient?

quote:

---

Although, I could say that if I was the terrorist who knew where the bomb was, I would want the enemy to torture me to find out where the bomb is so all those people wouldn't die, so technically, I would be doing onto them what I would want done to me

---

What on earth makes you think that we would restrict the use of torture to known terrorists?

quote:

---

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying[/sarcasm]

---

Well, what were you actually saying, then?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't care. You'd probably last about a minute before you hung up out of complete boredom.

---

OK, let's set this up.Please e-mail me all of your phone numbers.I am serious.

quote:

---

I just don't feel that affected by the government. I do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no problems. The only time I look to the government is when I need an authority.

---

Most people living under Saddam Hussein led quite normal lives unaffected by their government, too.But for a small minority of Iraqis, life under him was Hell on Earth.To me, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me" is a profound ethical principle and one I personally take to heart. I also believe that it was incorporated into the ethics of the Bill of Rights of the United States of America.If your principles and ethics are not affected by the knowledge that our government is starting to remove our civil rights just because you don't think that you, personally, will be affected, then I suppose that you and I have very different principles and ethics.We also have very differing views on how much to trust those in power not to abuse that power. History both ancient and current provides ample reason to distrust.

quote:

---

I just don't feel that affected by the government. I do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no problems. The only time I look to the government is when I need an authority.

---

The Salt Lake Tribune - Utah News, Sports, Religion & Entertainment

So, what ARE you saying if it isn't that?Correct my misinterpretation.Also, I notice you didn't answer my question: Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I'm not doing anything to anyone and I don't feel responsible for my govenrment.

---

You are responsible for your government in a democracy, no matter if you "feel" you are or not.Our government is "OF the people".So, if you don't care if your government tortures people or erodes civil liberties or marches towards Authoritarianism and Fascism, it is the same as you torturing people, you taking away civil liberties, you paving the way of the Authoritarian direction it is taking."Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers (through your government), that you do unto me."

quote:

---

Whatever the reason.....Duh!?

---

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear.I am saying that I think your principles and ethics are greatly lacking.

So, CS, I checked my e-mail and there is no message from you listing all of your phone numbers.I thought that you didn't care if I listened in on all of your calls? I can't do that unless I know your numbers, so go ahead and send them to me.I'm not going to allow anyone to question why I am listening in on all of your calls, nor am I going to be held liable if I or anyone I may have working for me happen to do anything damaging or illegal with any information about you that I learn.You don't have a problem with that, do you?OK, so I'll need all of your numbers, now. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I remember in a philosophy class this same argument was used but with a different example. It analyzed the difference between killing someone and letting someone die.

​

For instance, in one case, you murder someone by drowning them. In another, you see someone fall into a lake who cannot swim. You know this person cannot swim and is gulping water fast. Instead of helping the victim or calling for someone else to, you watch as the sufferer sinks beneath the water and drowns.

​

What's the moral difference between the two? Which is morally superior to the other? Good post, Schraf.

---

Thank you!To me, there is no moral difference between the two scenarios.I wonder what would happen if Catholic Scientist was a volunteer sunday school teacher at his parish and related his "I've got mine, the hell with everybody else" philosophy to the kids in his class?I'll bet his pastor would be sitting him down and having a little chat with him, don't you think?

---

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

quote:

---

I don’t think so. At what point did I become responsible? Birth? The first time I voted?

---

Because you live in a democracy. Our democratic government is by the people, for the people, and of the people. That means that the American people have the power and the responsibility to create and maintain their own government.Didn't you take a civics class in high school?You can leave, of course, if you wish to live in a Dictatorship, where you don't have any responsibility for what the leaders of the country do.

quote:

---

I haven’t voted for a single person that is in office, how am I responsible for what they do?

---

If your voting decisions are governed purely by your own selfish interests, and yet those voting descisions affect others, then what happens to others is in part, your responsibility.

quote:

---

In theory but not in reality.

---

No, in reality, for the most part.It is not a perfect system, but, just like in '94, this year we're going to see a popular uprising and we're going to see a lot of incumbents leaving office.

quote:

---

Let me add that its not that I don’t care if people are mistreated, its that its inevitable. A lot of bad shit is going to happen to a lot of bad people, that’s just the way things work. I’m not going to actively try to solve all the problems of the world.

---

Who said anything about solving "all the problems of the world"?Basically, you are saying that if you cannot prevent all suffering and injustice, everywhere, 100%, you have no responsibility or impulse to try to prevent any suffering and injustice, anywhere, at any time.

quote:

---

Although, I could say that if I was the terrorist who knew where the bomb was, I would want the enemy to torture me to find out where the bomb is so all those people wouldn't die, so technically, I would be doing onto them what I would want done to me

---

[quote]Nothing.[quote] So you're perfectly OK with torture being used on anybody, not just known terrorists, to get information?

quote:

---

Its never going to be the case where everyone is happy and its not even worth the effort to try. Basically, a lot of people are gonna be fucked and there is nothing I can do about that.

---

It isn't a question of totally eliminating the chance people getting fucked. Nobody, anywhere, at any time, has ever suggested that.The point is that, in a democracy, we can work to reduce the number of people on the receiving end of injustice and suffering. We have done it many times (check out all those nice Ammendments the next time you look at our Constitution). Just throwing your hands up and abdicating your responsibility to promote justice fairness just because we will never achieve perfection is a completely false dilemma.To illustrate;We can't prevent rape 100%, so why pass laws against rape at all?

Thanks, Jaderis!