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Author | Topic: Limits on Abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What I really want to know is what people who would make abortion the crime of premeditated murder think this would look like in practice.
For example, let's say that an 13 year old girl is made pregnant because her father has been molesting her. Her mother finds out about it and takes her to a doctor to get a secret abortion. First of all, are there cameras or informants inside the clinic to catch the people planning the abortion? Are there law enforcement officers posing as doctors in sting operations in order to catch people trying to get abortions? Now, let's say that the girl gets the abortion, but their medical records are searched by the government and they are found out. Is the girl going to be tried for first degree (premeditated) murder and be locked up for life? Is her mother going to also be tried for being an accesory to murder, and also go to prison? What about the doctor and the rest of the medical staff?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But juggs, this is MURDER in the first degree, isn't it? Why wouldn't law enforcement use fake clinics and pose as doctors to sting people planning to commit premeditated murder? Are you willing to send 13 year old incest victims to prison for decades, or life? Are you willing to send mothers and fathers to prison as accessories to murder?
quote: But, are you willing to send a 13 year old molestation victim to prison because she planned and carried out a premeditated murder? Because this is what you are calling abortion. Premeditated murder. Right?
quote: If you really believe that aborting a fetus is exactly the same as stabbing a newborn in the face with a sharp metal object, then why all the pussy-footing around my questions, juggs? If you really believe that when the 13 year old incest victim had the illegal abortion, she performed premeditated murder that is equivalent to stabbing a newborn infant in the head, then you should have no qualms about stating unequivocally that you would throw her ass in prison for the rest of her life.
quote: I think most people who advocate for forced pregnancy and childbirth haven't bothered to think for a single moment about the ramifications of such a thing.
quote: So, since most fertilized eggs never implant in a woman's uterus, should we begin to collect all women's menstrual discharge to search for those precious babies?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Page Not Found | Guttmacher Institute
Yet, while it may seem paradoxical, a country's abortion rate is not closely correlated with whether abortion is legal there. For example, abortion levels are quite high in Latin American countries, where abortion is highly restricted. (In fact, 20 million of the 46 million abortions performed annually worldwide occur in countries with highly restrictive abortion laws.) At the same time, abortion rates are quite low throughout Western Europe, where the procedure is legal and widely available. Also, Eastern and Western Europe have the world's highest and lowest abortion rates, respectively, yet abortion is generally legal throughout the Continent. If legality is not the determining factor, what drives the rates at which abortions occur in a given country? Clearly, a key factor is the rate at which women experience unintended pregnancies”itself a function of the interplay between a couple's family-size (and timing) goals and their contraceptive use. Abortion levels are high in countries where the desire for small families is strong but contraceptive use is low or ineffective. For example, in most of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics, where desired family size has been small for many years, modern contraceptive methods were not generally available until recently. As a result, women relied on abortion”which was legal, safe and easily accessible”to regulate births. However, as contraceptives have become much easier to obtain in recent years, the situation has begun to change rapidly, and abortion rates in some of these countries fell by as much as 50% between 1990 and 1996. In sharp contrast, even in countries where abortion is legal and widely available, abortion rates are low if couples practice contraception effectively to limit or space births. In the Netherlands, for example, where abortion has been legal and widely accessible for many years, abortion and unintended pregnancy rates are low because of widespread contraceptive use. When abortion occurs under legal conditions, it is usually performed early in pregnancy by a skilled practitioner using an accepted medical or surgical method in a hygienic setting; in such circumstances, the risk of complications and maternal morbidity is low. However, when abortion is largely illegal and must be performed clandestinely, it often is unsafe; in such situations, complication rates and maternal morbidity skyrocket. Some abortion opponents allege that the U.S. abortion rate is due to the extreme "permissiveness" of the nation's abortion policy. (As the result of the Supreme Court's 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade, the right to choose abortion is constitutionally protected until fetal viability, after which states may prohibit abortion except when it is necessary to save a woman's life or protect her health.) In practice, however, U.S. policy is roughly comparable to that of many Western European countries (which, moreover, pay for the procedure under their national health programs)”and virtually all of these countries have much lower abortion rates. Consistent with the experience of other countries around the world, the key variable that accounts for the high U.S. abortion rate is not a permissive law but a high unintended pregnancy rate. At the same time, and also consistent with the worldwide picture, abortion is extremely safe in this country”far safer than it was prior to Roe v. Wade, when the procedure was illegal in many states. Before Roe, women's choices, and experiences, were similar to those of women in developing countries today. Less affluent women who could not afford to travel to states where abortion was legal commonly turned to illegal, clandestine procedures”which often resulted in serious health complications and sometimes death. Even some better-off women who could afford to travel suffered consequences associated with delaying their abortions. And complications of abortion were a major cause of hospital admission. But as has been the experience in other countries, legalization has enabled women to obtain earlier, safer abortions. Today, more than half of abortions in this country occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, three-quarters within 12 weeks and almost 99% within 20 weeks. (A full-term pregnancy lasts 38 weeks.) A woman's risk of dying from abortion-related complications in this country (0.4 deaths per 100,000 procedures performed before eight weeks' gestation) is significantly lower than her risk of dying as the result of pregnancy or childbirth (seven deaths per 100,000 live births). In this regard, understanding that the legal status of abortion correlates much more with its safety than with its incidence is critical. One need only look at the experience in many developing countries”with their high rates of maternal death and disability related to illegal, unsafe abortions”for a powerful reminder of the social and medical costs routinely borne by women when access to safe abortion is denied.
Moreover, efforts focusing on restricting access to abortion in order to reduce its incidence are misguided; public policy should concentrate on helping women prevent unplanned pregnancies. Therefore, key policy objectives must include improving women's access to comprehensive family planning services and promoting the effective use of contraceptives.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Juggs, I was wondering if you were planning on addressing my latest reply to you.
Also, I would be interested in your comments on the report exerpts I posted above. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Difficult, indeed.
A woman's risk of dying from abortion-related complications in this country (0.4 deaths per 100,000 procedures performed before eight weeks' gestation) is significantly lower than her risk of dying as the result of pregnancy or childbirth (seven deaths per 100,000 live births).
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You are a friend to women everywhere, Crash.
I thank you.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I think this is a fantastic list of things that the pro-forced preganacy and birth movement should advocate and work for.
But they never will, and I'll tell you why. They don't want to prevent abortion if it means that the sluts will still be having sex. That's why the anti-choicers don't ever advocate for greater access to contraception or comprehensive sex education or any other well-proven methods other countries have successfully used to drastically reduce the incidence of abortion. The overriding motivation of these people is their intense desire to punish women for having sex and also to make everyone else feel as ashamed and dirty about sex as they do.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: This happens in countries that criminalize abortion: http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/GerriSantoro.jpg {Added by edit:
25 Years
is the source page for the above cited jpg. It includes the relevant text. - Adminnemooseus} Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But you speak your mind to all of your friends, don't you? You support the women in your own life, right? And you are probably going to have children and raise them with your values, correct? And you already mentioned that you vote pro-woman. That's enough.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So then you must surely advocate for the enforced collection of all women's menstrual fluid, since most fertilized eggs do not implant and are flushed out of the body during her menstrual period. I mean, at the very least, all of those precious babies should get a decent burial, shouldn't they? Or, some might still be viable after collection and then implanted into a uterus. You must be desperate to do this. So many babies dying in this way must keep you up at night.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, are the fertilized eggs that are flushed out of the body during menstruation, "persons"?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I can't help but notice that none of the anti-choicers have addressed my post regarding the fact that making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions.
The only thing it does is make abortions less safe and therefore, it puts more women's lives in danger. I also can't help but notice that none of the pro-forced pregnancy and birth people in this thread have stepped forward and claimed that they strongly support the free and widespread availability of contraception to everyone, comprehensive sex education, free universal prenatal care for women, and universal healthcare for children for that matter, nor any other measure that is proven to reduce the incidence of abortion and/or improve the lives of the millions of America's children without health insurance. Lastly, I also notice that there has been no response to my conclusion that all of the anti-choicers must be real broken up about all of those dead babies being flushed down the toilet along with used tampons.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I already posted the reason why why back in message #43 of this thread.
A woman's risk of dying from abortion-related complications in this country (0.4 deaths per 100,000 procedures performed before eight weeks' gestation) is significantly lower than her risk of dying as the result of pregnancy or childbirth (seven deaths per 100,000 live births). You haven't commented upon any of the facts I listed there, in fact. Why is that? Oh, how many babies have you and the other members of your church adopted? How much campaigning for more liberal adoption laws have you done? Do you realize that 20,000 children age out of foster care every year? That means that they never got adopted by anybody. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
It is a fact that when one compares countries where abortion is currently legal and also where it is not legal, and typically a small family size is desired, there is little to no difference in the number of abortions performed.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: In studies on the feelings of women after an abortion, the overriding emotion they report is relief. The greatest predictor of any negative feelings after abortion are the woman's attitude towards abortion before she gets one Have a gander at this website, juggs. Page not found - Welcome to I’m Not Sorry I'm Not Sorry . Net
I made a choice to end two pregnancies. I made a choice to continue to give my two sons the time and attention that they deserve. I made a choice to not burden our family financially. I made a choice to spend more time with my husband and to help our relationship, as not only parents, but as lifetime partners, flourish. I don't regret my decisions and I'm not sorry. I am almost four years later, I have been happily married for almost 2 years now and we look forward to having children in a couple of years from now when we are capable of providing a stable home for a child. Life couldn’t be better. Pro-Choice! I AM NOT SORRY! I made my choice and I do not regret it and I know I never will. I am a better, more empathetic person because of it and so are those close to me. I have a college degree and a career, a happy and fulfilling marriage, and the promise that the conception of our first child will be a joyous occasion. I made my choice and because I know the importance of that freedom, I will always fight for others to have that same choice. Thaose are just a few of the dozens and dozens of stories there. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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