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Author | Topic: Has evolution been proven ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CreationMan Inactive Member |
Hey sniggitydiggity,
I'm Just giving you some quick simple answers. 1) Evolution has not and cannot be proven true. Evolution is a philosophical/religous belief system about the past that is used to interpret scientific evidence. 2) Creation has not and cannot be proven true. Creationism is a religous belief system about the past that is used to interpret scientific evidence. Both Creationists and Evolutionists study the same evidence. We both study the same trees, rocks, earth and universe, but the reason we come to opposite conclusions is because we INTERPRET the evidence based on our belief system. Evolutionists believe that single-celled organisms gave rise to multi-celled organisms and multi-celled organisms gave rise to invertabrates and invertabrates gave rise to vertabrates and vertabrates gave rise to ape-like creatures and ape-like creatures gave rise to man. And they interpret the evidence based on this presupposition. Now I belief the Bible to be true and interpret the evidence based on that. Ultimately it comes down to faith. I beieve it takes less faith to believe in God and the Bible than it does to believe in evolution. It's good that you are searching this stuff out. Keep an open mind, have some fun, and THINK a whole lot!!! God Bless "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
MrHambre,
Keeping an open mind means at times you may have to change it. I gather there's no chance of that as far as you're concerned. If that statement were true I would not be a Christian or a creationist. It was the fact that I kept an open mind that caused me to change the way I WAS to make me into who I AM.
That said, you're absolutely correct that the theory of evolution by natural selection can't be proven true. Data doesn't 'prove' anything. The notion of a scientific theory is that it's a framework for organizing data, generating testable hypotheses, and guiding future research. The vast majority of observations are illuminated by this framework: there is a comprehensible order to life on Earth, and the basis of the interrelations among life forms is common ancestry. I agree up until the last statement.
...the basis of the interrelations among life forms is common ancestry. That is your interpretation of the evidence, but I would interpret it NOT to be common ancestry, but common design.
If evolution were a religious belief system, I wouldn't expect to see people from every conceivable philosophical and religious background who accept its validity. Check out posts from people on this very board and you'll find Christians, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, and atheists arguing in favor of Darwin's theory. It seems that creationism is the religious belief system, since its proponents are overwhelmingly religious fundamentalists. If you are right in stating this you must concede the existence of God, because everyone you mentioned (except for agnostics and atheists ) accept the existence of God. So if the majority of people accept evolution, thus making evolution true, does the majority of people accepting the existence of God make God true too? The key is not in how many people accept one view over another, but people interpret the evidence based on their belief. People who accept evolution accept it as a part of their belief system.
Creationists should deal with the same evidence as evolutionists, but unfortunately they're in the habit of merely ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit their concept. And conspicuously absent from the debate is evidence to support the plausibility of creation ex nihilo of species or life forms. As already stated, the evidence is the same. We DO deal with the same evidence, we just look at it differently. You say the Grand Canyon ws layed down slowly over millions of years. We say it was layed down rapidly by water (they are sedimentary layers). Same evidence, different view.
I think it's safe to say you're oversimplifying the debate. Nope, it really is this simple. Best Regards, "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Hambre
Oh, I see. The genetic evidence we use to establish common ancestry is the exact same evidence that establishes paternity in court. Perhaps you'd tell the jury that your client's DNA is so similar to his alleged child's DNA not because he's the father, but because of 'common design.' That might work. Good illustration, bad application. The DNA in our body's link us back to our parents and grandparents and so forth, but they do not link us back to an ape-like creature or any other "common ancestor" Just because there are similarities in DNA between species of organisms (i.e., man & chimp) does not imply that they have a common ancestor. Rather it argues stronger for a comon designer. Look at a porsche and a VW, they are very similar cars because they had the same designer! A number of studies have demonstrated a remarkable similarity in the nuclear DNA and mtDNA among modern humans. In fact, the DNA sequences for all people are so similar that we biologists usually say that modern humans had a recent origin. Evolutionist Professor Steven Jones said that bananas share 50% of their genes with humans, but that doesn’t make humans closely related to bananas. Some genes have profound control over development. And it has long been known that the very same gene in two different organisms can have a different function. Anyone can make figures say what they want, and anyone could say that on the basis of 97 chosen genes, humans and bananas are the very same species, since they are 100% identical. But of course we know this is proposterous to suggest.
Incidentally, I didn't imply that evolution had been proven because a lot of people believe it. What I said was that it can't just be a religious belief, because people of every religion (or lack thereof) accept it on scientific terms. Plenty of people believe in God and accept evolution, so your accusation that evolution is based on people's philosophical predisposition against religious explanations is null and void. They don't accept it on scientific terms, they accept it on the word of scientists. People thought the practice of blood letting was a good medical treatment too, not because there was scientific evidence for it, but because the scientific community thought it was good. Of course now we know it was disasterously wrong. The same principal applies here. Religions accept evolution NOT based on the evidence, but based on the word of evolutionists. Best Ragards [This message has been edited by CreationMan, 03-31-2004] "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Really? So why would there be differing degrees of correlation among genomes? Evolutionists say that the degree of correlation would be indirectly proportional to the time that has elapsed since the two organisms shared a common ancestor. What would the creationists say? Simple. The reason why there are differing degrees of correlation is because they are not identically the same. If you have a Labrador and a Collie, they have variation in their genome because of the speciation that has occurred over time. Both those DOGS had a "common ancestor," but that "common ancestor"was a DOG.
Back to court, where you're defending a client from a charge of plagiarism. Although your client's article has fundamental differences from the alleged original (like your client's name on the top), there are spelling and punctuation mistakes that are identical to mistakes in the original. Do you advise your client to plead innocent, even though it stretches the bounds of credulity to claim that the same mistakes occurred during separate acts of creation? Your question is asked out of misunderstanding. Those mistakes are not present as a result of seperate acts of creation. Remember, creationism does NOT propose that animals have not changed over time, that is an evolutionist misconception. We would suggest that over time, animal genomes have changed and modified over time through mutations. Thus the wide variety of animals WITH mistakes. Don't think that the client copied the paper with errors once and denies copying it. Think of it like this, the client AKNOWLEDGES he copied it thousands of times and each time that he copied it mistakes were made and they kept accumulating and still do.
Then consider this. Between the human genome and a chimp's, there are differences. However, the exact same nonfunctioning pseudogene (like the wrecked vitamin-C gene) in the exact same place in both genomes cannot conceivably support an assertion that these are separate acts of creation. Agreed, but you are assuming that humans and chimps are related and were created with those mistakes. But they weren't created with those mistakes, they were created perfectly and seperately and accumulated those mistakes over time.
A much more plausible explanation is that humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor, from whom both species inherited the pseudogene. That's your interpretation. Best Regards [This message has been edited by CreationMan, 03-31-2004] "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
CreationMan: you are assuming that humans and chimps are related
MrHambre: No, you're assuming that they're unrelated, despite the fact that you've interpreted other genetic similarities as pointing to common ancestry. This is creationism, as I said: interpreting some evidence, but ignoring what doesn't support the hypothesis. Now hold on a second, you are the one ignoring things here. My acceptance of common ancestry for somethings, is based on the FACT that dogs come from dogs, so therefore ALL dogs share a common ancestor that was a dog (scientifically observable and testable). But you want me to swallow the idea that a reptile and a bird share a common ancestor (not scientifically observable or testable) all you have is similairties in DNA to point to. Well here's a biological shocker, if the DNA of organisms of life on earth were not similar we wouldn't be able to survive. If plant DNA were not similar to Human DNA we could not eat and properly digest plants. A nice creative touch by the designer. Yet I would like for you to show what common ancestor plants and Humans supposedly "evolved" from.
Strange that your interpretation of genetic similarity changes at will. Two genomes are nearly identical, you can tell they're father and son. Two genomes are very similar, you can tell they're from two members of the same species. Two genomes have telltale similarities that can't be explained by anything except common ancestry, you choose to deny the conclusion of common ancestry. How convenient. But the jury is in, and it doesn't look like they agree with you. Did I miss something? What "Two genomes have telltale similarities that can't be explained by anything except common ancestry," and which I choose to deny??? Did you provide an example? The Jury is in...their hung. If the evidence is so obvious and so overpowering that it totally destroys Creationism, why are you and everyone else on forums such as these wasting your time arguing with ignorant and stubborn morans like me, as others have labeled us?http://http:// Best regards "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man--> Creation Man">http://Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
MrHambre,
For the time being I am finished with this and the other of my discussions. I didn't know this forum could take so much time! I am leaving for vacation tomorrow so won't be able to keep up with evrything. I wish, though, that they would stop sending me emails everytime somone replies!! As to me being a biologist. I am finishing up on another degree the end of this summer at the school where I work. My current research involves mitochondria and chloroplast, more specifically the function of their outer membrane. I find it interesting that there exists porins in both the plasma membrane and the outer membrane of M&C and are trying to determine the link between the two (if any exists). At first the SET would be assumed to explain this, but we are searching for something different, my research involves the nucleic DNA. I am also trying to discover more about the function of porins. As a matter of fact, I am just putting the finishing touches on my paper about the research and will be submitting it for review (hopefully) within the next 3 months. It was good talking to you guys, I hope we have this pleasure again. Best regards, *Edited for accuracy [This message has been edited by CreationMan, 04-03-2004] "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Mark,
What scientifically accepted facts do you base your acceptance of common ancestry on? The FACT that when you breed two dogs and continue to breed two dogs and let them breed with two more dogs etc. and then you stand back and take a look...you see that you started with dogs and ended with dogs. You can actually SEE the common ancestor of the dogs you bred!! "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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