RESURRECTION : THE EVIDENCE (+ Apostolic Martyrdom considerations)

Hi WT, I will reply to your previous post later tonight.However: How do you know this? How do you actually know for certain that he died on a cross? Remember, nothing in history is ever proven, you agreed with this in an earlier post. He had to die before 6-0-clock because no one would have been able to take him off the cross, or dress the corpse, as it would be the Sabbath. Good grief, two thousand years of Christian tradition changed in a sentence, a sentence that show how ignorant of scripture you actually are.For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So Jesus died on Wednesday, and he was in the tomb for three days, so he rose on Friday morning, where in scripture do you find support for this?Also, how do you explain Luke 24:1? On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb The first day of the week is Sunday, so it is impossible for there to be three days between Wednesday and Sunday, unless you know differently.Luke 24:21 has the disciples verifying this. but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place Luke 23:56 explicity refers to the weekly Sabbath. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. The verse specifically refers to the Sabbath, not 'a'Sabbath. This supports verse 54's claims.Perhaps you have a way to harmonise this 'High Sabbath' view, and the Holy Scriptures?Brian.[This message has been edited by Brian, 03-22-2004]

Hi WT,I want you to know that it personally makes no difference to my life when Jesus died or when the alleged resurrection took place, but I do feel a need to question things that I believe are incorrect, and I know that this Wednesday crucifixion is incorrect.You say: Dr. Scott’s calculations are (surprise surprise) incorrect.Jesus, you have already agreed, had died and been placed in the tomb before the Sabbath began, so in regard to Scott’s theory, that would be Wednesday afternoon. Dr. Scott should not start counting from the Wednesday sundown, he has to start counting from when Jesus died, and that was Wednesday afternoon.Scott seems unaware that the Jewish expression of ‘three days and nights’ is not three periods of 24 hours. ‘Day and night’ was a term used by Jews even when they meant only a part of that day.Look at God’s Holy Word for an example:Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish."Esther 5:1 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance.Esther would not go to the king until three day and nights had passed, yet on the third day she stood in front of the king.If Scott’s theory had been applied to Esther then it would have been the fourth day that she went to the King.Scripture also says that Jesus had to be resurrected within three days, not after three days.Mark 14:58 We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.If Dr. Scott wants Jesus dead on a Wednesday afternoon, then Jesus rose from the dead on Friday.Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."Matthew 27:63-64 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.The tomb was to be made secure until the third day, not the fourth day, Jesus clearly had to rise from the dead on Sunday morning, and any part of a day includes that ‘day and night.’ There is no mention of a 72 hour prophecy at all, this is a total fabrication. I don’t think so. Dr. Scott is wrong again and again and again, almost everything Scott says is basically incorrect. When Saturday sundown arrived, and we are into another day and night, your mentor has had Jesus dead for five days and five nights. Jesus has been in the tomb from Wednesday afternoon until Sunday morning. Remember that the Jewish people called any part of a day ‘day and night’, therefore Jesus would have been severely decomposed come Sunday morning.You really need to get yourself another mentor, one who actually knows what they are talking about because Dr. Scott is an imbecile.What’s more, he is misleading you and the other people who think he has a clue what he is talking about, I wonder how many of his cigars and wine have been paid for by gullible Christians.Here is an idea WT, why not read the Scriptures for yourself and come to your own conclusions under the guide of the Holy Spirit? You should give money grabbing psychos a body swerve.Best WishesBrian.

There is nothing difficult to understand about that, the problem is you are applying your conception of time with that of the Jewish people, and making a complete dog’s dinner of it.The Jewish calendar, counts days from evening to evening, from sundown to sundown, not as we do, from sunrise to sunrise. Scripture makes it quite clear.:Genesis 1:5 "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" Leviticus 23:32 It is a Sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath.You need to absorb this piece of information: in Judaism, a day includes a ‘day and a night, the ‘night’ begins just before sunset and ends just after sunset.Do you understand? You completely ignore my examples, the reference from Esther illustrates the point very well, she goes to the king on the third day, during the third day, a day that includes a night.I am at a loss as to why you do not know that Jews count the beginning of the next day at sundown, not at sunrise as we do.According to Scott, Jesus died on the Wednesday afternoon before sunset, he had to be taken down from the Cross and placed in the tomb before the Sabbath began. So he died on the Wednesday afternoon, the first day, then the transition from ‘day’ to ‘night’ begins before sunset and last until just after sunset when the second day (Thursday according to Scott) begins, so any reference to any part of the day would include a ‘day and a night’. From the Wednesday afternoon, when Jesus died, to just after sunset, when the Thursday begins, would be a period of two days and two nights.Simple facts. The Jewish day begins with the arrival of night, which would be the appearance of stars in the sky, with the transition of day to night beginning before sunset and lasting until after sunset when the next day begins, and the change of ‘night time’ to ‘day time’ beginning before sunrise and continuing until after sunrise. The dark period of ‘night’ beginning after sunset is the beginning of the next day.Scott is allowing his Modernism to taint his research, he makes the same mistake as a high school student would make.You can continue to display this monumental cognitive dissonance all you want, you can continue to ignore God’s Word, you can keep dodging all the evidence presented to you, but it is crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of objectivity that Dr. Scott’s knowledge of Judaism is entirely ignorant. No it doesn’t, a Jewish ‘day’ consists of a day and a night.What about the Scripture that says and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. The Lord was raised ON the third day, Scott’s baloney would have him risen on the fifth day! Why are you ignoring this? You haven’t carried anyone, all you have done is to ignore the arguments that blow your views apart, just like any fundamentalist would do, there has been no debate, you have offered nothing except hot air. There has been no rant, I have been very calmly pointing out how pathetic Scott is, and you are angry because you now know that Scott has made a fool of you, read what the guy claims for goodness sake, his knowledge of the Bible is extremely perverted. You cannot be serious surely? I posted scriptures, you ignored Esther, Mark 14, Matthew 16, and you have refuted nothing. Why was the tomb to be guarded UNTIL the third day? Remember the Roman guards witnessed Jesus emerging form the tomb, this would have to be on the third day, how do you explain this.Matthew 28: 2-4 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.How on earth could the Roman guards witness this if they were only to remain there until the third day? He also specifically said that 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man Read Jesus’ words, ‘and IN three days, NOT after three days and three nights, after three days and three nights would then be the fourth day.How would you harmonise ‘after three days and three nights’ with ‘in three days’, if ‘day’ did not mean ‘a day and a night? You are the one saying the Gospels do not contradict, you explain. I haven’t posted anything that is ignorant of Judaism, your empty claims are not rebuttals, they display the fact that you haven’t researched this at all, all you have done is to take Scott’s word for it.Try to actually read what I have posted, if you cannot be bothered going to a library then at least search the web for information on what a Jewish day consists of.Please answer my points, don't do a 'demeyer' on me, it is becoming extremely boring.Brian.

Hi LD,Just a minor point, Jesus was said to have died at three-o-clock in the afternoon. WT's 33AD date is a wild guess, no one knows when Jesus was born or which year he died.Brian.

Hiya Paul,Yes this should be good, 33 CE was a Friday Passover. But then again, I know nothing about Jewish Feast Days or the Jewish calendar, maybe WT's explanation will enlighten us, failing that Dr. Scott will make something up for him.Brian.

Hi WT, Yeah Ken is okay. I have shown the faults in Scott’s arguments many times, that you do not recognise these as faults does not alter the fact that they are there. I think you should add to this statement ‘in your opinion’ because he certainly isn’t anywhere near the quality of scholars such as Julius Wellhausen, Martin Noth, Roland de Vaux, or William Albright, but again this is just my opinion. But I think to call someone who doesn’t read Hebrew the brightest scholar to ever open a Bible is doomed to failure. Again this is your opinion, I have found massive faults in his work, they are there, you just don’t want to see them. I actually agree with you here, after this post I will not mention Scott again, I think by now you have a good understanding of what I think about him. I really didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, but I see ‘scholarship’ like that displayed by Scott to be deliberate deception and feel that he is misleading his readers. I can promise not to mention Scott again, but I have as much respect for him as I do for Eric Von Daniken, they actually have a lot of similarities. But I wont mention him again. It is actually asking why you ignore the Wednesday afternoon as being the first day. How can they be irrelevant to the issue, they are from the only collection of books that mention this event, so how can they be irrelevant? It makes perfect sense, and has done for nearly two thousand years. I am defending Scripture, which is pretty weird for me when I come to think about it. I have nothing personally to gain from defending the Friday crucifixion, it really appeals to my sense of humour that for almost 2000 years Christians have been wrong about something so basic. But in all honesty I cannot ignore the texts, which make it quite clear that he died on a Friday afternoon at 3-o-clock and rose from the dead on the Sunday morning. This does fit in with the way Jewish time was reckoned, whether we like it or not, this is a fact. I have explained this to you, and given examples that support it, that you admit to ignoring these examples because they undermine your stance doesn’t mean that the verses are wrong. We are talking about Jewish time, not Greek or English, these are different cultures. But Jewish time was not exact, there is no clear demarcation of night and day. Then again, maybe you can explain to me, since I appear not to know, if we take a Wednesday to a Thursday as an example when would the Wednesday night begin and when would it end, and when would Thursday then begin, if Thursday began at sundown, when did Wednesday night end? Says who? What do you offer to prove me wrong? You really are forcing our Western concept of time onto a people from a different culture, time and place. Post 183 Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown 1 DAY (24 hour period)What else can you possibly mean?Are you suggesting then that Jews do not count from evening to evening?Your example may well be 24 hours but Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown included two days and two nights by Jewish tradition.
I would also like to know why you continue to ignore that the Wednesday crucifixion proposal demands that Jesus died on the Wednesday afternoon?If you wanted to adhere strictly to the resurrection being 72 hours after Jesus died then by your model he would rise from the grave on Saturday afternoon. If he rose on the fourth day as per your model, then many prophecies would be incorrect. Jesus said he would rise ON the third day, not ON the fourth day. On the Sunday of the resurrection, the disciples said these events happened three days ago, NOT four days ago.The weight of evidence from Scripture is against your theory. You have claimed 33AD as the year Jesus died, the Passover was on a Friday that year, there are many online Jewish calendars where you can check this out. Yes, I know, and I know that you are incorrect here, you are forcing your concept of time onto something that does not require it. All scripture is open to interpretation that is why there are many thousand different flavours of Christianity. However, by you simply saying that my verses can be interpreted differently is not the same as providing a different interpretation for those verses. I have explained why they support my view, you have not said why they are incorrect. I rather think that the examples I have given are very convincing. But Jonah does not talk of 72 hours! These are all bare assertions by you. Yes he says after three days and three nights, this is not the same as what we mean in the USA and the UK by a 24-hour day. Are you saying that the Churches prior to the ‘Middle Ages’ did not believe that Jesus was crucified on a Friday?I would like you to clarify exactly what you are getting at here, I do not want to respond to something that may misrepresent your position.Thanks for the reply, sorry I haven’t answered sooner but you can appreciate that it isn’t always easy to find the time.Brian.PS. If you want to quote someone I find it easier to follow if you quote in this way.To begin the quote, use brackets [ ] and put 'qs' inside the brackets, after the quote use the brackets again [ ] and this time put '/qs' inside the brackets. It makes things easier to read.

Hi Percy,I will try again, I think what is in my head may not be what is appearing on the page! LOLOkay,What we need to remember is that when any part of a day is mentioned then Jewish time includes that day's night and day.Now, the Jewish 'day' (24 hour period) begins with the night, then at sunrise, the 'day' (time that it is light)begins, this lasts until after sundown when the next 'day' (24 hour period) begins again with the night of that particular day.If we say a man died at one minute after the sun went down on a Monday, then that man died on Tuesday. We have the Tuesday night first then the Tuesday daytime from sunrise to sundown, so the man has been dead for one night and one day. At one minute after sundown, when the man has been dead for 24 hours, we are into Wednesday, and since Jews count any single part of a day as being a day and a night, then after 24 hours that man has been dead for two days and two nights.Contrary to what WT believes, the Jews did not have the same definition of time as we do, we tend to count in blocks of 24 hours, the Jews don't.I used to think that it was a Bible error to say that Friday afternoon to Sunday morning was never three days and three nights, and it contradicted the rising on the third day reference. I would love to say that it is an error, but it simply isn't.I hope this explains things and doesn't have a condescending tone, I have been popping dihydrocodeine and Ibuprofen for three days now and I am feeling a bit 'out of it', so I admit that my explanation may need further clarification.Cheers for now.Brian.[This message has been edited by Brian, 03-25-2004]

Hi WT, No comment Brian.

How can this be possible? How could King Herod be involved with the Jesus life story when Herod died in 4 BC? Jesus had to have been born either in 4 BC or before that. If he was born in 2 BC then Herod would already have been dead. I am looking forward to seeing this evidence, I could probably already guess exactly what it consists of. Maybe because it actually did not occur on the Wednesday, is that at least a possibility? Although we have yet to be convinced of this, but let us not judge until we see the ‘proof’. Which scriptures have been written ‘thousands of years apart?’ The entire Bible wasn’t even composed over a thousand year period.
The apparent harmony is hardly impressive when you actually realise how the Bible was written. Scribes sitting looking at a past text and copying chunks out of it and adding their own words as well, is hardly a miracle. But virtually none of it has come to pass, Jesus failed, the Jews are not in the Promised Land, there is no peace on Earth. Surely you are not that gullible? April Fools Day has nothing at all to do with Jesus. And you complete objectivity is amazing. Come on WT, it is only your hysterical bias that is stopping you from seeing all the horrendous errors in this claim. And will you try and step back for a second and view this evidence with an open mind?Brian.

Hi WT That's fine WT, take your time as I will not be posting for at least two weeks.Brian.

Hi Willow, I know it is small consolation, but I can assure you that I take no pleasure from this treachery.I enjoy the debates here, but it is really a bit of escapism for me, a chance to relax and discuss topics that I enjoy. I know we don't agree on very much, but we still respect each other, I can only imagine how devastated you must feel. Don't let this get you down, put it down to experience and keep fighting the good fight.If I were you I would use this experience in a positive way, use it to spur you on to greater personal goals.I am going back to bed now, still in a bit of pain, but I have been able to read a few posts today, I really couldn't settle in bed until I let you know that I am not gloating in any way.Take care, I have no idea when I will be a regular poster again, hopefully it wont be too much longer.Brian.