My Christian Theism gets Personal!

The problem with this is that if I'm mature enough to accept that things aren't always going to work out the way I want, I don't need God. Why should I praise the Lord for everything that happens to me, if I can already see the good and bad things as two sides of the same coin?This is where a certain God-concept is completely impervious to rational consideration. "Whether good things happen or not, I thank God. Whether I get the things I want or not, I assume God is answering my prayers. Whether things turn out for the best or not, I consider everything part of God's plan. When events seem cruel, pitiless, or unfortunate, I figure God wants them to be that way."So what sort of empirical significance does this belief system have? It seems that there is no conceivable eventuality that cannot be said to emanate from divine will. By the same token, there's no difference between that sort of belief in 'God's plan' and the belief that things happen for no particular reason.regards,
Esteban "Fatalist" Hambre

Stephen,My post was trying to point out that a mature perspective on the trials of existence is basically indistinguishable from belief that "it's all part of the Plan." Whether we attribute events to the indifference of the universe or the intention of the Creator, we accept the things we can't control and hope for better things.However, you've made a name (or two) for yourself on this board by asserting that faith and prayer have demonstrable, quantifiable effects. Many believers use miracles or answered prayers as support for the validity of their faith. And ultimately, the promised afterlife constitutes a compelling reason to keep faith when things seem bleak. I submit that the believer is motivated by material gain just as strongly as the non-believer.The story of Job (to which you alluded in your first reply to DC85) is a case in point. Job is a righteous man who suffers his calamities nobly at first. When he finally succumbs to doubt, God reminds him that he doesn't have the proper understanding to make sense of life's traumas. Job accepts this, and then believers can breathe a sigh of relief when Job is restored to health and prosperity. The message that faith must be its own reward is thus contradicted: we're reassured that there'll be a payoff eventually. Yeshua himself (the real one, not you) was no stranger to the I'll-pay-you-back-after-you-die tactic: he said his father's house has many mansions, and he was going to prepare one for each of his followers.So one can have a realistic perspective on suffering based on mature acceptance of the often unfortunate truths of our existence. However, I don't accept that faith in a sweet afterlife deal is mature or realistic. If there weren't a tangible benefit involved in 'praising the Lord anyway,' you wouldn't be doing it.regards,
Esteban "Plague of Boils" Hambre

Brian,I'd like to apologize as well, for saying in Message #18, Actually, in one conversation with God, He told me not to even pray for Christians, because going to a Christian church was a "sin unto death." (1 John 5:16).I don't know what kind of crack I was smoking, that was really uncalled for. I don't really expect anyone to be so dumb they'd believe I have conversations with God, okay? And I don't blame anyone for being mortified that I would say going to a Christian church is a mortal sin. I'll try to be more responsible in the future.regards,
Este ban Hambre

Stephen,Hey, now, enough with that sarcasm. I believe the Bible Codes prove that God exists, that we are at spiritual war with demons, that Darwinist evolution is a lie from the maw of the Evil One, and that churchgoers are committing mortal sin. And God told me so. If you don't believe it, that's your choice. But He tells me to despise you for it, and to inform you that you'll rot in the furnace of Hell for not believing. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.I've presented all my evidence in the form of anecdote. I formulate quasi-scientific tests that are strange parodies of valid scientific methodology. I've dodged all challenges to subject my claims to controlled testing. Anyone who accuses me of stacking the deck, to give myself the right to believe whatever I want to believe, is taking Satan's side in the war against God. Our loving Father says I should hate them deeply and accuse them of scientific ignorance. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.Sounds like you're the one with the problem. Maybe you should get some epistemology, or beg the loving Father for faith and wisdom like mine. Feel free to call me a hateful crank, if you like, but I know it's only a product of your blind allegiance to your master Satan. I have the evidence, and God tells me what I need to know. You'd better equip yourself for a long eternity on the lake of burning fire, because that's where God tells me you're going. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.regards,
Esteban "Not My Fault" Hambre

Stephen,Two and two equal five. God believes this, and he wants you to believe it too. I've done experiments and have arrived at this result, and you can too. If you don't come up with the right answer, pray some more. Try again later. If you still come up with a non-God-sanctioned result, maybe you're not praying hard enough. Maybe you don't want to see. Maybe your allegiance to Satan has clouded your vision, and I hate you deeply for that.Well, it's your choice. God wants us to see that two and two equal five. It's your choice, are you going to listen to your Almighty Loving Father or some cheap calculator? The key to eternal life is yours, and God won't be held responsible for the consequences should you refuse Him.See how easy this is?regards,
Esteban Hambre{edited to correct spelling}[This message has been edited by MrHambre, 03-19-2004]