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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 855 of 1110 (910142)
04-17-2023 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by Percy
04-17-2023 4:21 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Where did Joe Biden get the idea that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid?
Percy:
As I already said, the nuances and subtleties of epidemiology aren't easily grasped, and I can easily believe that Joe Biden would say something like this, even after being properly briefed by experts.
I think you're thinking of when Biden said this at a CNN town hall on July 21, 2021:
Joe Biden:
BIDEN: If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the IC unit, and you’re not going to die...You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.
That's obviously incorrect. You later ask if these remarks were ever corrected. I could find no news item about a correction, but check out Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-19 Pandemic | The White House for him stating the case correctly.

Where in that speech did Joe Biden correct his erroneous claim that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid? And who is at risk from Covid, those that are vaccinated or those that are unvaccinated?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 4:21 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 857 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 5:31 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 858 of 1110 (910145)
04-17-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Percy
04-17-2023 5:15 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you really think that the general population understands the optimum use of face masks?
Percy:
The article is not targeted at the general public. I think the intended audience understands it just fine.
Kleinman:
Who is the target audience for the generalized use of masks?
Percy:
As I said, the target audience for the article is not the general public but medical professionals, who understand the terminology just fine.



Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals?
And in case you are interested, here is where Joe Biden got his expert advice that vaccinations prevent the spread of Covid.
https://thehill.com/...-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"
Fauci said:
Anthony Fauci, chief medical adviser to President Biden, said during a discussion on Sunday about the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) decision to drop mask recommendations for fully vaccinated individuals that vaccinated people become “dead ends” for COVID-19.
Appearing on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” Fauci explained to host John Dickerson that fully vaccinated people can go without masks even if they have an asymptomatic case of COVID-19 because the level of virus is much lower in their nasopharynx, the top part of their throat that lies behind the nose, than it is in someone who is unvaccinated.
“So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,” Fauci said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 5:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 8:48 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 859 of 1110 (910146)
04-17-2023 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Percy
04-17-2023 5:31 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Where in that speech did Joe Biden correct his erroneous claim that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid?
Percy:
As I said, I could find no news item about a correction about his comments at the CNN Town Hall in July (Fact-checking Biden’s town hall on CNN). In the September speech (Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic) he states the case correctly.​

Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
And who is at risk from Covid, those that are vaccinated or those that are unvaccinated?
Percy:
Statistically the unvaccinated are at greater risk for illness and death.

Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 5:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 9:15 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 862 of 1110 (910151)
04-18-2023 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 860 by Percy
04-17-2023 8:48 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals?
Percy:
No, I don't think that.

Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it?
Kleinman:
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"...
Percy:
Even worse was when Fauci said early on during the pandemic that masks would provide little benefit to the general population. He later admitted that wasn't true, that he only said it out of concern for their availability to the medical community, especially of N95's.

Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease? Fauci has little or no clinical experience and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 860 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 8:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:20 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 863 of 1110 (910152)
04-18-2023 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 861 by Percy
04-17-2023 9:15 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid?
Percy:
In Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic he talks not about vaccines preventing spread, which was incorrect, but about the protections vaccines provide:

Joe Biden didn't correct his erroneous claim that vaccines prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Why didn't he make this correction?
Kleinman:
Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will?
Percy:
Whose right is greater, that of people to experience a lower risk of infection out in public, or that of people who wish not to be vaccinated? I don't have an answer for you. I do believe that society is best served by individuals who have the best interests of their fellows at heart.

You have already said that unvaccinated people are at greater risk of illness and death from disease. If someone thinks they have the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't do it by forcing people to do something against their will. They make their case and let people decide for themselves. You want to do it by making laws based on poor preparation and a false sense of security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 9:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:49 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 866 of 1110 (910158)
04-18-2023 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Percy
04-18-2023 9:20 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it?
Percy:
Judging by what I saw out in public during the mask-wearing phase, a significant proportion of people don't understand that gaps compromise mask effectiveness. The worst gaps occur when people wear the mask below the nose. I don't think the general public realizes how ineffective cloth masks are, or that surgical masks have a sort of running gap all around the edge.

I also don't know how much the general public is aware of the debate about the relative effectiveness of surgical versus N95 masks, but laboratory measurements indicate that N95's are far better at capturing small droplets than surgical masks, and they have a much better fit with far fewer gaps.​

Do you understand that a general mask mandate for the prevention of the spread of an infectious disease requires a lot of preparation of the population, (education, training,...etc.)? And what do you do with children that are too young to understand that training? Do you think that writing a law solves the problem? Yours and the "good intentions" of others that think like you have harmed a lot of people with your shallow thinking.
Kleinman:
Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease?
Percy:
It's a continuum. The better the mask and the more properly and consistently it is worn, particular when other people are present, the more effective it will be at reducing the spread of respiratory disease.

I'm not arguing whether a properly worn, effective mask will reduce the risk of transmission of an infectious disease. Why do you continue to argue this way? The question is whether a generalized mask mandate will reduce the spread of Covid (or for that matter any other infectious disease). Where is your evidence that any generalized mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
Fauci has little or no clinical experience...
Percy:
According to Wikipedia, that isn't an accurate statement:
Wikipedia on Anthony Fauci:
After completing his medical residency in 1968, Fauci joined the National Institutes of Health (NIH) as a clinical associate in the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases's (NIAID) Laboratory of Clinical Investigation (LCI). He became head of the LCI's Clinical Physiology Section in 1974, and in 1980 was appointed chief of the NIAID's Laboratory of Immunoregulation. He became director of the NIAID in 1984. Fauci has been offered the position of director of the NIH several times, but has declined each time.


Do you think that looking at a spreadsheet is the same as seeing and caring for patients?
Kleinman:
...and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people.
Percy:
The "general population" is a large and diverse group, significant proportions of which seem to behave in ways counter to their own best interests. There is a multiplicity of ways that members of this group respond to the medical community and medical advice. I would imagine that most physicians despair of ever developing a good feel for how they will behave.

Do you think you know enough to force people to behave in ways in their own best interests? Try doing 150,000 documented patient encounters (encounters I got paid for) and see if you get some idea of how patients behave and respond.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by xongsmith, posted 04-18-2023 12:53 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 885 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 7:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 868 of 1110 (910164)
04-18-2023 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 867 by xongsmith
04-18-2023 12:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
xongsmith:
Why didn't you just begin by saying that the public is too stupid to behave properly?
I think a lot of the animosity you created would have been avoided.

It's one thing to claim that the vaccinations are not effective and that masking
is not effective, but both work as instructed if the stupids just follow instructions.

Oh well, it's another day in the neighborhood,
xongsmith will now give us instructions on correctly using vaccinations and masks. After that, he will instruct us on how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. If he can't do that, perhaps Richard Dawkins will explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by xongsmith, posted 04-18-2023 12:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 1:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 870 of 1110 (910166)
04-18-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 1:50 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
xongsmith will now give us instructions on correctly using vaccinations and masks. After that, he will instruct us on how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
AZPaul3:
Why should he? You can't.

xongsmith is not a biologist or a medical doctor. You are (so you say).

But you can't explain any of these things, either.

I like explaining these things to you AZPaul3, you are so well prepared to understand them. Here it is.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
With a little training, even you could learn it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 1:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 2:53 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 872 of 1110 (910171)
04-18-2023 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 2:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
I like explaining these things to you AZPaul3
AZPaul3:
Kleinman, have you not been paying attention? Your papers mean nothing.​

They may mean nothing to you and biologists that are poorly trained in biological and physical sciences, and mathematics, but to anyone that has minimal training in these areas, they get it. You are just too impatient, you expect biologists to give up their myth instantaneously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 2:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 3:31 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 874 of 1110 (910176)
04-18-2023 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 3:31 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
AZPaul3:
The world of the crackpot. The sky is blue but all you see is pink polka dots. Gotta keep the fantasy going. Gotta kill evolution. Can't kill evolution if your sane.
You are having trouble with the argument. It is universal common descent that is mathematically impossible. Biological evolution causes drug resistance to evolve and cancer treatment to fail. And here's why.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Do you think smilies will work? Ask dwise1 how well they worked for him. And while you are at it, ask him about the "at least one" rule used in probability theory. You need some education in mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 3:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 3:51 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 882 by xongsmith, posted 04-19-2023 12:36 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 876 of 1110 (910180)
04-18-2023 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 3:51 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
It is universal common descent that is mathematically impossible.
AZPaul3:
No it is not and we know why.

This should be good, AZPaul3 is going to explain to us how universal common descent works.
Kleinman:
Biological evolution causes drug resistance to evolve and cancer treatment to fail.
AZPaul3:
Yes it does. Just as it changes all life.

It just doesn't cause universal common descent, that is mathematically impossible. But don't let me stop you, explain to us all how universal common descent is mathematically possible.
Kleinman:
And here's why.
AZPaul3:
No these are not why. That's the point of this entire thread. Your papers explain nothing. They mean nothing.

It's not the point of this entire thread, it is the point of this entire forum. And sure, may papers explain something, for example, how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. We all know how interested you are in this topic, so I'll show you how it works.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Kleinman:
Do you think smilies will work?
AZPaul3:


Is that the best you have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 3:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 5:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 878 of 1110 (910184)
04-18-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 5:16 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
This should be good, AZPaul3 is going to explain to us how universal common descent works.
AZPaul3:
Again? How many times have I done this over the years and you want it yet again?

No.

You would make a good biologist, they can't explain their mythology either.
Kleinman:
It just doesn't cause universal common descent, that is mathematically impossible.
AZPaul3:
Of course evolution causes common descent. That's the part you're trying to kill for the violent love and ignorant glory of your god.

And it is all very possible mathematically and physically since it happened in reality.

You have convinced me, you are related to fecal bacteria.
Kleinman:
explain to us all how universal common descent is mathematically possible.
AZPaul3:
No. If you were interested you would know already just as I do.

Let it be known by all biologists and others poorly trained in the biological and physical sciences, and mathematics. Universal common descent is true because AZPaul3 knows it to be so.
Kleinman:
For a single selection pressure:
AZPaul3:
Worthless, Kleinman.

Have you notified the editors and peer reviewers at Statistic in Medicine and the people at Retraction Watch – Tracking retractions as a window into the scientific process that these papers,
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
that these papers need to be removed?
AZPaul3:
Kleinman:
Is that the best you have?
AZPaul3:
Yeah. That's the biggest laugh in Percy's sandbox. Works just fine, makes a point, tells you that you are an idiot, doesn't take up a lot of room, easy to add. It's great.

If you want I can try to find a giant finger for you? That's more appropriate to your attitude


Find whatever you want since you and biologists can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments. This is what happens when you don't wear a mask!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 6:47 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 880 of 1110 (910191)
04-18-2023 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 6:47 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Find whatever you want since you and biologists can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.
AZPaul3:
I can. Biologist can. You can't.

Kleinman will now tell us how he has all the answers to questions we already have answers for and will reference his errant bogus and ignored self-published papers showing the facts on the ground from reality are mathematically impossible.

AZPaul3 will now post the biologists' explanation of how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments. He won't, but I will.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
For multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
AZPaul3 is a prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 6:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 7:52 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 883 of 1110 (910198)
04-19-2023 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 7:52 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
AZPaul3 is a prophet.
AZPaul3:
Kleinman will now tell us how he has all the answers ...
AZPaul3:
The Great Prophet AZPaul3, having spoken, is shown devine by correct revelation yet again. We are so good.


AZPaul3 is the prophet without profit.
Did you hear the one about the little bad boy? The little bad boy says to his father, "If you give me $10, I'll be a good boy." His father says to him, "Why son, when I was your age, I was good for nothing!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 7:52 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 884 of 1110 (910199)
04-19-2023 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 882 by xongsmith
04-19-2023 12:36 AM


Re: Universal Common Descent
Kleinman:
It is universal common descent that is mathematically impossible.
xongsmith:
No. It is multiple descent that is mathematically impossible.

All life forms use the RNA-DNA mechanism of molecular biology. The complexity of the DNA molecule in a gene is so
staggeringly huge - way too huge for two separate lifeforms to have both come up with the same RNA-DNA mechanism.

The odds on that are so tiny it is essentially zero.

Is this your way of saying that you don't know why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments?
So, tell us how the RNA-DNA mechanism of molecular biology evolved even though you can't explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step to evolve in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.
Since you can't do that, perhaps Richard Dawkins can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by xongsmith, posted 04-19-2023 12:36 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
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