This all may be true on the ground and in a ground war. There are two ways NATO can be hurt.I still argue that the main way that the West will be crippled is economically. The other method is Cyber-attacks. Granted Russia is nearly done. I feel that this war will continue through other means. It may turn into an economic war.
We may also find ourselves confronting another COVID virus or something similar.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
There are two ways NATO can be hurt.I still argue that the main way that the West will be crippled is economically.
Wait, what about all that gold that the governments and banks are all buying, that you are always going on about? Why are they buying all that wonderful gold if it can't save us/them?
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
This article explains the dilemma from an admittedly Libertarian viewpoint. The alternative, by the way (and for you Liberals), is this:
quote:If the fiat monetary system is to be saved from collapse, the economies will, unfortunately, have to throw overboard what little is left of the free economic and social system, for basically all the remaining corrective forces of the free market will have to be put to rest. In fact, governments will have to take recourse to more regulation, prohibitions, taxes, controls etc. In other words, the free economic and societal system will fall victim to the effort of preserving the fiat money system.
Let me guess that most of you see no problem with such an approach!
quote: It actually can also be seen as a kind of Mephistophelian trade: good gold money was exchanged for bad fiat money—as in the Faustian bargain, supreme moral values, or the personal soul, were surrendered to an evil spirit. In any case, the decoupling of money from gold and the entrusting of the money-producing enterprise to the state and its central bank henceforth will probably prove to be one of the greatest follies in human history.
When Communism initially fell in 1990, it was partially because the United States simply and decisively outspent the Eastern Bloc. Ironically, the reverse will now happen. The Russian attempts at changing the global order will involve allowing the West to outspend them. The house of cards needs but a puff of hot air.
Finally, consider this article and the implications for the US Dollar:
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Why are they buying all that wonderful gold if it can't save us/them?
My guess is that the old money system will eventually fail and in order for a new system to be sound it will have to be backed by one of two things: 1) Gold and a solid commodities basket) or 2) Human commitment. (Mandatory)Think Mark Of The Beast. Or laugh, I really don't care. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make them drink.
And you know the only thing that *can* save us.
I'll call it Truth, Love, and Honesty. Nobody really wants that, however. Ringo will crow that I myself dont want it!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
There won't be years of Putin doing anything - he's over; he miscalculated, he's lost, either quickly or slowly, he and Russia are now out of the global picture - he can no longer win.
Russia now controls all of Ukraine's seaports...or very nearly so. He may well have bluffed the main goal of capturing the Capital, Kyiv. As I have said before, he wants the wheat and he wants the ports.
Ukraine won't survive without their trade.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Fiat currencies haven’t collapsed. Government has other tools - like interest rates. Unfettered “free” markets are a bad idea anyway - not that we can expect a libertarian to admit that. We need a degree of regulation, taxation and controls. (Consider the issues of insider trading and monopolies for instance).
The idea of gold being “good” is equally silly. The value of gold is hardly less artificial than that of fiat currencies.
We may also find ourselves confronting another COVID virus or something similar.
Basics Phat, learn the basics.
We WILL find ourselves confronting new and even more serious pandemic threats. That is a given and one that anyone who is not totally willfully ignorant should know. It has been a KNOWN fact for many hundreds of years.
The editorials and opinion pages from all the main European outlets I have seen are bristling with pro-NATO sentiments but so are the regional papers (English web sites) like Al Jazeera, DW German News Service, The Baltic Times, Postimees (Post Times – Estonia). These folks are scared but instead of wanting conciliation they want guns.
There was a reason eastern Europe wanted into NATO as soon as possible. That galvanizing fear is back. It's not going to abate in just a few decades. Tzar Vladimir the Condemned doesn't have that long. The USofA may indeed lose interest as soon as the next catchy meme comes along but, what I see is that the Europeans have just about peed their pants. This is going to be with them for a while.
It's a terrible example, because it's not an example but an analogy.
I was being kind, but if you insist, it's a terrible analogy. The Maginot line was a physical defence structure that was simply walked around. NATO can't be bypassed - it's binary, an attack on one is an attack on all.
This just repeats your original argument, which wasn't necessary. I understood you the first time, and since I disagreed I presented a counterargument, which you ignored.
I don't think even you believe what you just said about analogies. I'm glad you weren't my English teacher. You're using a form of fallacious argument: if you can't attack the idea, attack the way it was presented, though preferably in a way that doesn't redefine how English works.
You hold up NATO like it was some kind of shield of invincibility, just as the French held up the Maginot Line.
It is,...
Even as you wrote this you must have experienced misgivings about claiming something to be invincible. That's the kind of bellicose claim worthy of Putin or Trump.
...but unlike the Maginot line it can't be circumvented.
You're repeating the same military argument, you're arguing statically in time, and you're ignoring the political and propaganda elements. NATO has a significant political component, its membership won't remain static, and the resolve of individual members won't remain static. NATO isn't even a contiguous block. 95% of the Baltic states border is with Russia (the Kaliningrad region to their southwest is a discontinuous Russian region). Finland and Sweden aren't members, Norway's off by itself, and Hungary and Turkey have significant military ties to Russia.
It's a promise. NATO has to make others believe that they will act on the promise if one of their members is attacked. Their actions today are showing that's real.
Since no NATO member was attacked or defended today (or yesterday), no NATO action today (or yesterday) was a demonstration of their "all for one and one for all" commitment.
Raising the point about undermining NATO unity and resolve yet again in the hope it might be addressed this time, here are two articles from today's Post describing a couple of Putin's efforts to undermine resolve in the west:
There won't be years of Putin doing anything - he's over; he miscalculated, he's lost, either quickly or slowly, he and Russia are now out of the global picture - he can no longer win.
Even as you wrote this you must have experienced misgivings about claiming something in an absolute manner. You sound like someone in a sports bar: "No way St. Peter's can beat Kentucky." Or to use a sport you're more familiar with, "No way Sheriff Tiraspol can beat Real Madrid."
This message didn't need to be so long. Most of the the answers to your comments are contained in the parts of my message that you ignored.
I don't think Europeans are any less fickle than Americans. What they have that Americans lack is the immediacy of how close the Russian threat is. Hence their attitudes are more likely to oscillate wildly between complacency and panic.
Putin's pretty good (not perfect) at exploiting this. During lulls he convinces Europe how friendly and non-threatening Russia is, he influences their politics, and once they're not expecting anything he takes Georgia or Chechnya or the Crimea or Belarus. Now it's Ukraine, the biggest bite he's tried to take so far.
Obviously Putin is emboldened by the mess he's managed to make of the national politics of western countries. Britain still has Boris Johnson. The US only recently got rid of Trump but may get him back. Hungary still has Orbán and Turkey still has Erdoğan.
Glance through the article and you'll learn some very interesting things. Russia's war against Ukraine was actually self-defense (Tucker Carlson). Putin's is trying to "denazify" Ukraine (right wing commentators). The US funded bioweapons labs in Ukraine (InfoWars).
I think it would be a mistake to believe that these false stories won't have an impact. Nearly half the country still believes Biden stole the 2020 election, so it is no stretch to believe that the same rubes will latch onto these false stories about Ukraine, impacting our commitment to Europe and NATO.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Hence their attitudes are more likely to oscillate wildly between complacency and panic.
And that's fine. That attitude, however, is not going to be about NATO v non-NATO.
That stance is evidenced by how many nations opted into NATO as soon as they could, how many nations have joined NATO in the last 70 years, and how many nations the Russians have invaded and killed in that same period.
Obviously Putin is emboldened by the mess he's managed to make of the national politics of western countries. Britain still has Boris Johnson. The US only recently got rid of Trump but may get him back. Hungary still has Orbán and Turkey still has Erdoğan.
Yeah? And now that he needs the Big Split to happen, where is NATO?
NATO is firmly, solidly, standing on Tzar Vladimir the Condemned's border feeding arrows to his enemy and, shaken of it's complacency and emboldened by a stand-up comedian from Kiev, will now gear up even more for war.
Putin shot his wad. He has failed and I think he knows it but hasn't found that golden road out, yet. He will torture the Ukraine, and his own people, until someone finds him a way out or kills him dead.
When Communism initially fell in 1990, it was partially because the United States simply and decisively outspent the Eastern Bloc. Ironically, the reverse will now happen. The Russian attempts at changing the global order will involve allowing the West to outspend them. The house of cards needs but a puff of hot air.
You seem to think that when money is spent it vanishes like it was burned. While I don't think weapons are a good thing to spend money on, I do realize that it flows through an economy just as if it was spent on all the other things we spend money on. It didn't vanish in a puff of smoke.
On the other hand, Soviet Russia spent their money on crappy weapons made by conmen enriching themselves and hiding their ill-gotten gains outside of the Russian economy. Meanwhile, the supply lines of food and all the other commodities the Russian people needed just to survive, completely failed, and inevitably so did the Soviet Union and their satellites.
The Russian attempts at changing the global order will involve allowing the West to outspend them. The house of cards needs but a puff of hot air.
Allowing the west to outspend them? The military-industrial complex is the biggest part of our economy, and has been for decades. We spend almost a TRILLION DOLLARS ON IT A YEAR, every fucking year!
The house of cards is the Russian economy, but lets hope the puff of hot air is not from nuclear weapons.
And just to be clear, your articles are total bullshit!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
You seem to think that when money is spent it vanishes like it was burned.
I know of one instance where NASA took $$10billion and put it on a rocket and parked it out at the L2 Lagrange point on a special space pallet they special built for it. People keep going on about how that money could have been used to feed kids, and educate and clothe and medicate kids. Like maybe it could have been the NASA engineers' and janitors', the eggheads' and the sub-contractors' and the office secretaries kids, that got the benefit, you know. And coulda done that for something like 30 years. A really bad missed opportunity.
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