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Author Topic:   Noah's Flood and the Geologic Layers (was Noah's shallow sea)
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 213 (86123)
02-13-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Joe Meert
02-13-2004 12:44 PM


Re: Geology explained
It's 'safe' to say so only in ignorance
What do you know of our world in Noah's day? Would it be safe to say you are ignorant of it, to a very large extent? If not, we may have a few questions for you. If so, then why base too much on things you are ignorant of? What was that burrower you mentioned anyhow?
Before proceeding, am I correct in assuming that you feel that all sedimentary strata from Cambrian through Mesozoic are flood strata
Well, I feel the fossilized creatures in them may have been done so in the flood. Then again, there were some probably or possibly from before as well, so I guess it depends. You would have to know which creatures if any went extinct before the waters came. Then you could safely say they could not have been in flood deposits. (Unless they were disturbed, and redeposited in the violence).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Joe Meert, posted 02-13-2004 12:44 PM Joe Meert has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 213 (86219)
02-14-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Percy
02-13-2004 3:15 PM


Nature's Effects
. At least 2-3 feet of sand, eroded from offshore, was deposited high on the beach here and along the concrete walls of the resort
http://www.ambergriscaye.com/mitch/1.html
Hatteras damage from hurricane Dennis
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/...ricane/geological_impact.html
Landslides and Liquefaction (isn't this what some posters think 'doesn't exist'?)
Buildings aren't the only thing to fail under the stresses of seismic waves. Often unstable regions of hillsides or mountains fail. In addition to the obvious hazard posed by large landslides, even non lethal slides can cause problems when they block highways they can be inconvenient or cause problems for emergency and rescue operations.
Occasionally large landslides can be triggered by earthquakes. In 1970 an earthquake off the coast of Peru produced a landslide than began 80 miles away from the earthquake. The slide was large (witnesses estimated it's height at about 30 meters or 100 feet), traveled at more than one-hundred miles per hour and plowed through part of one village and annihilated another, killing more than 18,000 people.
In some cases, when the surface is underlain by a saturated, sand rich layer of soil, prolonged shaking can cause the expulsion of fluid from the sand layer resulting in large "sand blows" that erupt through the overlying strata.
In the 1811-12 earthquakes the sand blows were enormous and covered large regions of the Missouri bootheel. Liquefaction can cause other problems as the soil loses it ability to resist shear and flows much like quick sand. Anything relying on the substrata for support can shift, tilt, rupture, or collapse.
Earthquake Effects
Just a few more photos. I think it's safe to say nature can have a mighty and varied effect. And indeed depositing sand, or eroding it in a New York minute is amoung some of it's powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 02-13-2004 3:15 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 213 (86220)
02-14-2004 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Loudmouth
02-13-2004 3:18 PM


Re: Geology explained
no one is claiming that God wrote it directly
Would that include for you, when His own finger carved out some of it in stones? Would thatbe why the Saviour of man told us He and the word that was given were one? Would there then be no Holy Spirit? And when Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away, was He pulling our leg?
So I'm suppose to know how to let you know how to 'falsify' Noah's flood? ........"Then your theory of a young earth/global flood is meaningless"
So then, if I could prove it false you would be inclined to believe it? But since it is true and neither of us can prove it false, you say it's meaningless! By that standard, I can see why you would tend to gravitate to the theory than can be 'falsified'. So I'm getting emty rhetoric here, instead of answers. Hmmm. OK, I'll give it just a while longer and see what substance surfaces.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 213 (86223)
02-14-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by ThingsChange
02-13-2004 5:39 PM


Re: Geology explained
Good preachin. That it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ThingsChange, posted 02-13-2004 5:39 PM ThingsChange has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 213 (86230)
02-14-2004 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Minnemooseus
02-14-2004 2:43 AM


late night research
I'll have to get back tommorow on this, I been up late doing some chromosone research. (Heres what I got so far)
"I did some research on this, folks. I decided the more chromosomes you have, the more complex you must be because it is the most complex molecule in the universe; and so I arranged a bunch of animals and plants in order based upon the number of chromosomes they had.
I discovered that penicillin [sic] has two chromosomes. Fruit flies have eight. There are a few missing links in there three, four, five, six, seven. I don't know where they went, but I do believe from this research that I could prove that penicillin [sic] slowly evolved into fruit flies. And then over billions of years, they got more chromosomes someplace and turned into either a housefly or a tomato. (They are twins, you know! Pretty tough to tell the difference.) They both have 12 chromosomes.
And then very slowly over billions of years we got more chromosomes and became a pea. [....] Very slowly over millions of years we got enough chromosomes to become a human. Here we are folks: we have forty-six. And if we can just get two more we are going to be a tobacco plant! [.....]
Why don't they teach the kids about the chromosome number as proof for evolution? I’ll tell you why: because it goes totally against the theory. You won't find that mentioned anyplace! Those are facts, folks! Chromosome number does not prove evolution. That's all a farce, of course. And evolution itself is a farce." [emphasis added]
http://www.geocities.com/kenthovind/lies/chromosome.htm

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 Message 177 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-14-2004 2:43 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 213 (86325)
02-14-2004 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by alacrity fitzhugh
02-14-2004 11:55 AM


nothing new under son
for forty days the rain poured down without stopping.and the water became deeper and deeper,until the boat started floating high above the ground.finally the mighty flood was so deep that even the highest MOUNTAIN PEAKS
Well, many people feel (like Walt), that the mountains were much lower in the old earth. I believe they have them no higher than about 4000' (maybe closer to 5, but that's about it). So the Himalayas would have been uplifted if they are right. Regardless, I've never heard anyone claim hurricanes had really anything to do with that. I mentioned hurricanes as probably being in the mix, after God flooded the world.
now if that dont beat all he/she/it murders 99.9% of all live on earth but it is our fault
Yes, they never used capital letters, so now they are fossilized. Seriously though, if you remember Noah getting shikfaced drunk as soon as possible after the global end of life one great year, right after God had to end His original experiment. Here is God, in a not too jovial mood at having had to end man's earthly part of their lives abruptly-and what does He see? He sees something that got Him upset. It seems innocent enough, but apparently God found the behavior of one of Noah's sons serious enough to punish him. The son had 'looked on his father's nakedness', in his drunken sleep, probably 'standing at attention'. This son, one of the few people to survive the old world, apparently got Got upset by carrying over a hangover from the old one. (lustful little look at pops). God didn't want to end His experiment, and if not for those few He rescued, all us billions now would not be here! In effect He saved billions.
there is just as much "violence now as then humans kill humans with so much zeal we now call it the art of war
Jesus told us 'as in the days of Noah, so shall the days-(just before He returns)- be'.!!
when confronted an shown there is no proof
Where's this? You think your post is proof of something?
you have no proof you seem to not even know what your own book says
No, I don't have any proof that I don't even know what my own book says. Why would you think that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 02-14-2004 11:55 AM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by IrishRockhound, posted 02-14-2004 9:52 PM simple has replied
 Message 201 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 02-16-2004 2:08 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 213 (86329)
02-14-2004 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by mark24
02-14-2004 4:49 AM


Re: late night research
IT is also based on the misapprehension that high chromosome number is a goal, it isn't.
I think the fellow's research I posted, (whom you all seem to know), was humorous. Even God has a sense of humour. You need to evolve one. Deep in some chromosone there may lie one just waiting to be released.

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 213 (86340)
02-14-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by IrishRockhound
02-14-2004 9:52 PM


accidental explanation
Can you condense your thoughts on why the flood never happened to the root premises?
why should geologists assume that the sedimentary processes we see today are radically different to those in the past
Because they don't explain what happened well. I was going to close the thread, but go ahead and give us a few sentences on your conclusions.
"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents-the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts-i.e., of materialism and astronomy-are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."
-- C.S. Lewis (1898-1963), British writer and critic

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Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by edge, posted 02-15-2004 10:06 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 213 (86496)
02-15-2004 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by edge
02-15-2004 10:06 AM


Re: accidental explanation
How do they not 'explain what happened'
Today's processes, as a whole do not explain how things worked in the old, or pre flood world. Unless we assume the 2 worlds were the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by edge, posted 02-15-2004 10:06 AM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Joe Meert, posted 02-15-2004 8:21 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 213 (86500)
02-15-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
02-15-2004 10:15 AM


phatboys options grow
Actually, to be fair, we could add a third option:
c) Alien wisdom or fallibility, as the case may be.
The most important part of the bible, the words of Jesus were given directly! And recorded by direct witnesses 6 ways from Sunday! Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. Then, just to make sure there was no mistake, He rose from the dead.
As far as your hypothesis, we forgot an imporant one for old age believers. The paper mutated from trees, developing stains, which, after millions of years formed into actual words, all punctuated perfectly by some fluke of nature. Then some metals in rocks were struck by a comet, which melted and scattered them, as they fell from the air they assembled into a delivery truck, complete with a printing press in back. The rest was fairly easy, except the long wait for the flys who were in the truck, who had to wait millions of years to turn into men, and learn to read.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 02-15-2004 10:15 AM Phat has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 213 (86718)
02-16-2004 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Joe Meert
02-15-2004 8:21 PM


geo ruling in.
This assumes there was a 'pre-flood' world
And you assume there was none, apparently. Your proposed theoretical geo-illogical column, and other reasoning all have the same problem. Funny you should bring up circular reasoning! I guess you have to assume God is a circular reasoner too. Here are a few snips from c.s. sites, regarding your theorized column. You could question some numbers perhaps, but when the dust settles, it is a very un-universal and 'life evoled from itself' hypothetical concept. As you can see it is rejected as well. Thrown out of court as it were! Not able to be used as evidence whatsoever of time.
"The geologic column is an abstract, conceptual tool that gives order to the overall geologic record. It's like a yearbook with the pictures of all the 9th graders in it. No one expects that every one of those 9th graders will belong to a particular club or show up for a particular dance! Neither does the geologist expect that every locality will exhibit all the known strata. The point is that the earth's strata has a very definite chronological order to it, and that overall, ideal order, physically represented by all the known strata, is usually what is meant when one refers to the geologic column. Different localities will, to varying degrees of completeness and perfection, illustrate that ideal order.
Dave Matson Young Earth Geologic Column Fictitious » Internet Infidels
Creationists have shown that the geological column presents no problem to Flood geology. It is nothing more than a hypothetical classification scheme based on selected rock outcrops in Europe, and used flexibly to classify rocks around the world.[1],[2] Anti-creationists have responded that the column is valid, having been built up in a thoroughly logical way long before the theory of evolution was invented, and that many of those who contributed to its building were creationists.[3] One unanswerable argument for the hypothetical character of the column is that nowhere in the world does the complete column exist. The majority of the geological periods are missing in the field. Although anti-creationists usually have not disputed that the column is mostly missing, they have argued that we should not expect the entire column to exist in the field. Erosion, they argue, is why the complete column is never found.3 Hence they claim that rocks deposited during one period would be eroded away during a later period. So, while those defending the column have invented ad hoc reasons to explain the missing geologic periods, they did not deny the hypothetical nature of the column.
Now what does all this mean? Common sense teaches us that 16 miles (at most) which exists, out of a total of 100 or 200 miles, is a very incomplete column! It remains primarily an invention of the uniformitarian imagination, and a textbook orthodoxy. So, although there are places where lithologies referable to all ten of the Phanerozoic systems can actually be seen superposed, creationists remain more than justified in highlighting the essential non-existence of the standard geologic column. And we have not even touched such matters as overlapping fossil ranges, non-superposed index fossils, and many other things, which expose the non-reality of the geologic column. That is, most fossils found are for only one geologic system (e.g. Devonian), and most index fossils do not actually superpose at the same locality. In other words, most locations with Devonian fishes are not overlain by rocks bearing Cretaceous ammonites, and most locations with Cretaceous ammonites do not overlie localities with Devonian fishes. The same can be said for all the index fossils of all of the geologic systems.
But where does Morton get his information? He cites as his source the work of the Robertson Group, a London-based oil-consulting company. I have been unable to secure a copy of this work, as it is not listed in either WorldCat or GEOREF. Thus I cannot comment on the accuracy of this source of information, nor discern whether or not its portrayal of sedimentary basins is overly schematic. Evidently, Morton is citing a proprietary source not subject to public scrutiny. But let us, for the sake of argument, grant the complete validity of what the Robertson Group states, as represented by Morton. Even then the claims are overly generalised. For example, Morton’s does not say how given strata had been ‘dated’. Which ‘geologic ages’ had been identified according to the faunal content of the strata, and which had simply been ‘guesstimated’ according to lithological similarity and/or comparable stratigraphic position with faunally-dated sedimentary formations at adjacent locations? All this is moot, however. As noted earlier, since most of the sediment is missing, Morton’s arguments are completely specious even if the Robertson Group work is thoroughly accurate and not excessively schematic in its depiction of the world’s sedimentary basins.
There are a number of locations on the earth where all ten periods of the Phanerozoic geologic column have been assigned. However, this does not mean that the geological column is real. Firstly, the presence or absence of all ten periods is not the issue, because the thickness of the sediment pile, even in those locations, is only a small fraction (8—16% or less) of the total thickness of the hypothetical geologic column. Without question, most of the column is missing in the field.
Secondly, those locations where it has been possible to assign all ten periods represent less than 0.4% of the earth’s surface, or 1% if the ocean basins are excluded. Obviously it is the exception, rather than the rule, to be able to assign all of the ten Phanerozoic periods to the sedimentary pile in any one location on the earth. It does not engender confidence in the reality of the geological column when it is absent 99% of the time.
Thirdly, even where the ten periods have been assigned, the way in which they were assigned can be quite subjective. It is a well known fact, for example, that many unfossiliferous Permian rocks are ‘dated’ as such solely because they happen to be sandwiched between faunally-dated Carboniferous and faunally-dated Triassic rocks. Without closer examination, it is impossible to determine how many of the ‘ten Phanerozoic systems superposed’ have been assigned on the basis of index fossils (by which each of the Phanerozoic systems have been defined) and how many have been assigned by indirect methods such as lithological similarity, comparable stratigraphic level, and schematic depictions. Clearly, if the periods in these locations were assigned by assuming that the geological column was real, then it is circular reasoning to use the assigned ten periods to argue the reality of the column.
Finally, the geological column is a hypothetical concept that can always be rescued by special pleading. A number of standard explanations are used to account for missing geological periods, including erosion and non-deposition. Clear field evidence, such as unconformities, is not necessarily needed before these explanations are invoked. Similarly a range of standard explanations is used to account for the fossils when their order is beyond what the column would predict. These include reworking, stratigraphic leaking, and long-range fossils. Even if all ten periods of the column had never been assigned to one local stratigraphic section anywhere on the earth, the concept of the geological column would still be accepted as fact by conventional uniformitarian geologists.
To the diluviologist this means, of course, that only the local succession has to be explained by Flood-related processes. Very seldom do all ten geologic systems have to be accounted for in terms of Flood deposition.
There is no escaping the fact that the Phanerozoic geologic column remains essentially non-existent. It should be obvious, to all but the most biased observers, that it is the anti-creationists who misrepresent the geologic facts. The geologic column does not exist to any substantive extent, and scientific creationists are correct to point this out
The zeal with which this evolutionary circle of reasoning is guarded is seen clearly in the approach taken with respect to its problems and contradictions. When radioactive mineral age determinations conflict with the paleontology dating (as they frequently do), they are abandoned as having been somehow altered since deposition. When, in a given location, a formation of a certain age rests conformably and naturally on a formation of a much earlier age, with all the intervening ages omitted (and this kind of thing is found almost everywhere), then it is assumed that these missing ages were ages of uplift and erosion rather than deposition, even if no evidence of this exists. When fossils from different ages are found together in the same formation (as does happen with some frequency), then it is assumed that earlier deposits have been re-worked and mixed together. And when (as very often is the case) formations with ancient fossils are found lying conformably on top of formations with recent fossils, then great earth movements and overthrusts must be invoked to get the column out of its proper evolutionary order, even though in many cases there is no evidence of such movements and even though there is no adequate physical mechanism which could produce them!
http://www.csinfo.org/Dino_Fossils.htm
http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp
the masters of circular reasoning try to point a finger?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Joe Meert, posted 02-15-2004 8:21 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Joe Meert, posted 02-16-2004 4:32 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 213 (86725)
02-16-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by IrishRockhound
02-16-2004 8:09 AM


it's stompin time!
: So far, we have no reason to assume that geological processes in the past were radically different to those that we see today
Only if you assume the old world was no different, which, really in effect is assuming there was no old pre flood world. Of course it would have been different.
sufficient evidence to suggest that those processes were, in fact, quite similar
Of course some things would be very similar. Also, these "sedimentary structures, volcanic layers" are you imagining them as pre flood?
In Ireland, we see a huge variety of environments changing over time, representing (in conventional geology) millions of years of climate change
Not surprising. Can you tell me almost anything in the convention flood denial so called geology that isn't millions of years old?
There are simply too many changing environments, not to mention later deformation and faulting that juxtaposed the beds
when you look at it from what had been conventional evolutionary tinted glasses, everything only fits without God's flood. Assuming a flood, we simply have to expand our minds to realize the scale of violence that must have occured. Stop looking at the geoillogical column as some order of self creation, and it may be a start.
In summary, one year is just not enough
Actally, tou have I think a few extra weeks, if we want to get technical! A 'global end of life one great year' geology is one I propose that is better at accounting foe what we see, than the passe way it has tried to be explained by the common ancestor suppositions theories.
Simple, there is no evidence of a pre-flood world, or of a flood for that matter. Where is the boundary? What formations should I be looking at? Can creationists pinpoint ANYWHERE in the world where the flood boundary is seen
Noah lived I think about 5 hundred years in the old world, as did his sons for some time as well. Then he lived somewhere around 3 hundred years in our new world as well. So why would I say he was insane, or a liar? When we rule out what happened, and assume a self made order, we are incapable of seeing the 'writing on the wall' (or rocks in this case). Boundry? Where could we safely say that the world ending event did not effect? Tell me, and we'll talk about some 'boundry'. In effect trying to put up a boundry to the effects of the flood seems like trying to put up a barrier and limit it's effect. Especially if one is to look at similar looking creatures, then go on and assume they evolved into each other, and use that anti creation logic to project an imagined old age as a concequence to this desired evolving.
Get your facts straight, no matter how rare they might be
I could buy a 'missing link' with a fact and still have more than enough left to trounce your old world, old age, old hat theory.
But thanks for keeping it short, it was well condensed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by IrishRockhound, posted 02-16-2004 8:09 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 213 (86728)
02-16-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Joe Meert
02-16-2004 4:32 PM


Re: Off topic post
You could be right that the ages we assign to the geological column are all wrong and that the column is completely fictitious
Coming from you, I'm going to save these words.
Even so, that would not prove that a flood took place. The geologic record that we do have, no matter how complete/incomplete it is, does not show evidence for a global flood. Well, you feel all the fossils then were not from the flood. I'll say some of them may not have been. But why the zeal to dash this pillar of faith we call Noah's flood?
BY the way here's my answer to your off topic post
Thanks for the reply. It was a big article, which part of it would I be directed to as some potential answer to the 'off topic' post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Joe Meert, posted 02-16-2004 4:32 PM Joe Meert has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 213 (86736)
02-16-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by alacrity fitzhugh
02-16-2004 2:08 PM


2nd try was at least readable
Well, it's more proof than you have seen fit to show. Listen, youngster
You folks can get presumptous. Perhaps the simple concepts are for your benefit?
God is an illusionist
So you know Him then? There are cases, for example in His book where He did hide things from those who thought they were wise, and removed any such illusion for the 'babes' (simple). Or, with prophesy, where things were hid from some ('none of the wicked shall understand'). So, inasmuch as some things cannot be seen by some, perhaps He is at times, somewhat of s delusionist.
How many errors in math on my part did I leave that you failed to notice, ie, 1992-20004 is 12 yrs, that's one
No proof you're just a young person trying to sound philosophical and failing at it
True, you've no proof I'm failing, or that I'm young!
"reveals an intelligence of such superiority that compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection." Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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