A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism

What if it were true? Would you do anything different than you do now? Would you accept that you were a sinner and ask God into your heart? Or would you simply say "thats cool too!" Just being hypothetical. You are one of my favorites here. Your arguments make a lot of sense. I have a question, though. If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there? As an added hypothetical...how would one change course? Simply by believing? By doing more good things? By joining a cult? What would you do?

So if I asked you the same question I asked Stile above, what would you do? Likely challenge the authority of the one who made the lake of fire in the first place!

Essentially you are asking me if I would do what I intrinsically knew to be right at the risk of my own life. It would be what God wanted me to do. It would be difficult to do, but I would try my best.One difference between you an the counter-arguments is that you believe that humans somehow know better than the God of the book. This sort of argument is a lie of the enemy. Of course we will do what we know to be right, and God will support it. You can wait for evidence while you do your best, but I have enough evidence to fuel these debates with you. (and to sacrifice for others) despite your claims that I am somehow trying to weasel out of it. All I am doing is challenging your daft idea that humans know better than any God character thus far.

And if hell didnt exist, there would always be the possibility that ringo would grow up, leave home, and do what he thought was right even if he never acknowledged that he had a father who taught him. And if ringo fell short of the mark, it would be ok as long as he did his best. Its the kids who were living at home and were evil and got booted out of the house that makes a need for a place for them to stay. Imagine a kid who was beyond rehabilitation. Every home they tried to live in would boot them out to protect its members. They may wind up on the street, stealing and grabbing handouts to survive. Granted its not my job to judge them...im just being hypothetical. God created a place they could all stay if they refused to repent and acknowledge Dads authority (and love).One may argue, in this hypothetical, that after all, Dad created them for the purpose. (I CANTS fallen angel argument) and that Hell was a foreknown place for the incorrigible. You argue that even the evil bastards deserve what the rest of us have. OK, they can stay at YOUR house! We wont rename your place as "hell" but it will be a house not many want to visit...unless your guests behave a bit better.

Well this is a major sticking point, isn't it. Pastor ICANT showed me a new understanding than the one I had, which is that Satan was created precisely for the purpose that he had. Namely, to give us a choice. If this is true, everlasting punishment is only meant for him, not for the rest of us. Of course, you will argue that "threatening" people into Heaven is rather disappointing for an omnipotent Creator...but throughout History, people have had more to fear from each other than they have ever had to fear from a wrathful God.If, in fact, the concept of a free pardon exists, however, you really have no claim against the idea of eternal punishment...unless you want to lobby for Satan. And if satan was created for the purpose, take it up with God rather than slandering Him.

And you constantly ridicule apologists. Furthermore, you lobby against the character of God. Nobody knows if all of the firstborn in Egypt were ever killed nor who did the killing. Lots of people are getting killed for there to be no enemy.

Ever hear of God? Satan? Eternal life? You cant simply cherry pick eternal punishment out of the lineup and throw those away.

Well you think that the concept of God is childish anyway. I doubt I will ever persuade you otherwise. If you are honest in your decision to hardly give the story another thought, I doubt if you would get judged harshly...provided you are a decent human in other respects. The bottom line is that we all have not learned everything that we are destined to learn....that is, if you believe in the idea that your life has a destiny apart from death and fostering children to carry on the tangle name. These arguments are so drawn out and unproductive!If I am ever in the UK, I will let you know and will buy you a coffee if you ever decided to let a loon like me near you.

I know the drill. Its all a primitive superstition that happened to have a good message about doing selflessly for others. That much you have taught me. I am grateful for your perspective. You do get me worked up time and again, however. Why must you always disagree?

In ways I suppose it is not, I avoid thinking as you do about the characters being fictional...because I reject being whatever it is that you are...on a spectrum from atheist to Deist. I avoid thinking of God this way thus I reject the character which you may or may not embrace...I can't tell because you throw away all envelopes...so I can't make out the return address.

Yes we can reject such a description. Belief is not limited to what the book tells us. If you keep God locked up in the book, you limit yourself to a belief in Long John Silver rather than an eternal omniscient pirate archetype.

This should be a good can of worms!
Tell us, Mr."What The Book Says" why such a concept is ridiculous. Of course, in order to do so, you must make up a logical answer, since you won't find one in the book.I know jars argument concerning this...but I want to hear ringos version. It boils down to whether we prefer a human Jesus or a Godlike favoring one.It also revolves around the Gospel of John as part of the book or an added confusion.Pastor ICANT explains it well:

quote:

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We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

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Ringo is obviously in jars camp on this one. I await his response. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Interesting. I was about to go into auto-pilot and quote John 3:16, arguing that belief is based on the notion that He *does* care...but I got to thinking....why do humans find a need to believe that God cares? Yeah, but Faith never mentions her relationship with God at all...except to say that she knows she is right about Him and that what He says goes...end of discussion.I would resent an authoritarian God.And although it makes logical sense, I reject tangles argument that everything knowable about God is in the book and that there is no relationship outside of that book. For me, the Bible is more personal. Critics will argue that I feel this way because of how I was raised. Comments?

I know. You can be in the group, for as I said before, you may have been sent as a divine thorn in our flesh. To your credit, you do know the Bible rather well, but I would expect some lively conversations at Bible Study.

Now we are running into trouble. While honest questions are encouraged at Bible Study, assuming that God is a fictional character in the book will get you an argument. And no Pastor worth his salt would allow a rebel to scramble everyone's faith at Bible Study. Some members are just now learning about Jesus. They may have gotten saved a few Sundays earlier, and the pastor wants to encourage them to find out more about God through the study. You would have them leaving with more confusion in their beliefs. Did they ever toss you out of church or did you simply walk away on your own? Just curious.