Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 196 of 378 (845982)
12-24-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
12-24-2018 2:50 PM


Screamingly Obvious
At the time animal sacrifice was pretty much 100 % for all sects. Jesus is just an exaggeration of the idea. If you don't slice open lambs at least once a year who aren't a true believer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 197 of 378 (845985)
12-24-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
12-24-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
But it isn't about inerrancy. It's about what the scriptures actually say. We can reject the idea of an actual worldwide Flood but we can't reject the description of a God who clearly would use one to wipe out mankind.
Again, you can't read the whole Bible in the same way. It's 66 books and hundreds of authors writing centuries apart, in different cultures and with different situations and influences. I agree that there probably was a flood. Was it worldwide? No. Was it caused by Yahweh's intervention in the natural order? No.
So yes. I have no problem rejecting the idea that God would use a flood to wipe out not only mankind but all other life as well. If you like, we can go back to that rather hackneyed expression; "what would Jesus do?". He just wouldn't do it.
If however you can stand back and look at it and ask yourself what God might be saying to us in the flood story. What I would get out of it is that God is saying that even if the whole world has turned away from Him and His message of love and mercy except for one man, He will continue to reach out to us through that one man.
ringo writes:
Theirs is an honest reading of the Bible; yours is not. They may come up with ludicrous, impossible interpretations based on a requirement for inerrancy but your interpretation is just made up.
Why is that an honest reading? If you look at the story of the Good Samaritan it doesn’t say that it is a parable. A literal reading would say that Jesus was describing an actual event although I’ve never heard anybody believing that to be the case.
It is reading texts written 2000 years ago with a 21st century mindset of how writing is to be understood. I actually contend that it is a dishonest way of understanding the scriptures because even with a 21st century mindset you have to agree that things written which clearly conflict are still both accurate.
GDR writes:
As far as hell is concerned, I as a Christian believe in ultimate perfect justice. You tell me, should Stalin and Mother Theresa ,or Hitler and Mahatma Ghandi receive the same ultimate result?
ringo writes:
Realistically, they all did receive the same result. They're all dead. Realistically, there's no such thing as "ultimate justice".
Certainly if there is no God there is no possibility of ultimate justice. Those that commit atrocities in this life and get away with it will, if they can live with it, wind up with the same ultimate result. If however, there is a God who cares for and loves us, then we can hope that ultimately there will be justice.
Yes, this is all about faith, but it is a faith consistent with what we see in Jesus. Even in the resurrected Jesus we see an example of God’s justice.
The example that comes to mind for me is this. I was raised in a home where I was loved, valued and cared for. I have grown up in a culture and a time that gave me freedom and opportunity. I figure I am one of the most privileged people that has ever lived. I have worked with people who grew up being kicked around from one foster home to another. In many cases they were largely considered a nuisance but the foster parents needed the money for taking them in. I realize that the majority of foster parents are wonderful, but even then these people knew that they were rejected by their birth parents. My privileged life has facilitated my life going smoothly, but that isn’t the case for so many others. It is my belief that am I called by God to do what I can to make up for this injustice in this life, and by faith in this life I believe that you are wrong and there will be ultimate justice, by a loving and merciful God.
GDR writes:
I'm not avoiding anything in the Bible. Yes I do reject a number of things...
ringo writes:
You contradict yourself. How is avoiding different from rejecting?
A good example is the flood story as I mentioned above. I accept the story and think of what message God might want me to get from it. However, as far as it being a literal worldwide flood I rejected it as read literally, but I didn’t avoid it.
ringo writes:
I think one of the biggest errors in the Bible (or at least drawn from the Bible) is the idea that Jesus died for our sins. What a ridiculous concept.
I agree that is a concept that is just thrown around to easily by much of the church. Through the OT scriptures we can see that the OT Jews believed that God wanted blood sacrifices. At least with the story of Isaac and his son they got away from human sacrifice. Jesus knew that if He went into Jerusalem doing what He was going to do that He would be crucified. However, even though He was so afraid of the prospect that He sweated blood, He believed that from His understanding of the Scriptures and through prayer that this was His vocation.
I have only a vague understanding in my own mind but I see it this way. We have our Earthly dimension and God has His Heavenly dimension or universe if you like. Jesus was the first human to bridge the gap between the two and became the first citizen of the renewed creation where heaven and earth become one. The Jews believed that to have sins forgiven they would go to the Temple, offer up a sacrifice and pray for forgiveness. Jesus was in many ways a counter-temple movement. He in effect was saying that through Him God was fulfilling the long hoped for return to His people. Instead of the Temple being the place to go to encounter God, and for forgiveness; forgiveness could be had through Him. Jesus became the bridge between us and the Father.
Of course that is all meaningless without the resurrection, which among other things gave God’s affirmation of Jesus’ message.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-24-2018 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:25 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 198 of 378 (845988)
12-24-2018 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by GDR
12-24-2018 2:26 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
You're welcome i'm sure.
Merry Christmas back at you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 2:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 378 (846008)
12-26-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
11-30-2018 9:12 AM


Re: Reply To Percy
Percy writes:
My faith in God comes from within and not from any evidence. Since there *is* no evidence, I know nothing about him. My internal unevidenced feeling is that He gives purpose to the universe and is not a personal God. He may not even know or care about us on this tiny planet orbiting an average sun in a sparse portion of an arm of an unremarkable galaxy.
Interesting. I was about to go into auto-pilot and quote John 3:16, arguing that belief is based on the notion that He *does* care...but I got to thinking....why do humans find a need to believe that God cares?
GDR also freely makes his own personal interpretations and picks and chooses among passages seeking those he thinks better reflect God's nature as he sees it (incredibly apparently rejecting the entire OT in favor of the NT) in order to create a God that is, as Ringo so aptly puts it, "palatable" to him.
Yeah, but Faith never mentions her relationship with God at all...except to say that she knows she is right about Him and that what He says goes...end of discussion.
I would resent an authoritarian God.
And although it makes logical sense, I reject tangles argument that everything knowable about God is in the book and that there is no relationship outside of that book.
The Koran and the Book of Mormon tell plenty of stories, too. There need to be credible reasons for rejecting them and accepting the Bible's.
For me, the Bible is more personal. Critics will argue that I feel this way because of how I was raised. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 11-30-2018 9:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2018 3:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 200 of 378 (846009)
12-26-2018 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
12-26-2018 3:01 PM


Re: Reply To Percy
Phat writes:
I reject tangles argument that everything knowable about God is in the book
How can it be different, that's all you have?
and that there is no relationship outside of that book.
You can't have a relationship with a book. The relationship you guys talk of is like the relationship some children have with their imaginary friend. It seems real to them but the adults know they'll grow out of it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 12-26-2018 3:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 11:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 201 of 378 (846037)
12-27-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
12-24-2018 2:41 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
I avoid thinking as you do about the characters being fictional...because I reject being whatever it is that you are...on a spectrum from atheist to Deist.
That's like rejecting evolution "because it contradicts the Bible" before you know anything about the Bible or evolution.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 202 of 378 (846039)
12-27-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Phat
12-24-2018 2:44 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
Belief is not limited to what the book tells us. If you keep God locked up in the book, you limit yourself to a belief in Long John Silver rather than an eternal omniscient pirate archetype.
But I do keep Long John Silver locked up in the book. It's the only source of information about him that I have. I don't elevate him to "an eternal omniscient pirate archetype" because there is no reason to do so. I accept that he's a fictional character and that he can not be trusted. There is no excuse for sanitizing the characters in the book.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 10:58 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 378 (846040)
12-27-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
12-27-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
I know. You can be in the group, for as I said before, you may have been sent as a divine thorn in our flesh. To your credit, you do know the Bible rather well, but I would expect some lively conversations at Bible Study.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 204 of 378 (846042)
12-27-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
12-27-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Now we are running into trouble. While honest questions are encouraged at Bible Study, assuming that God is a fictional character in the book will get you an argument. And no Pastor worth his salt would allow a rebel to scramble everyone's faith at Bible Study. Some members are just now learning about Jesus. They may have gotten saved a few Sundays earlier, and the pastor wants to encourage them to find out more about God through the study. You would have them leaving with more confusion in their beliefs. Did they ever toss you out of church or did you simply walk away on your own? Just curious.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:33 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 205 of 378 (846043)
12-27-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
12-24-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Jesus Died For What? Ringo Explains
Phat writes:
Tell us, Mr."What The Book Says" why such a concept is ridiculous.
I've done that many times. It's like the Godfather saying, "You owe me big time. Kill my son and we'll call it even." Why do you even need to be told how ridiculous that is?
Phat writes:
It boils down to whether we prefer a human Jesus or a Godlike favoring one.
No it doesn't. It boils down to stupid apologetics.
ICANT writes:
Pastor ICANT explains it well:
quote:
We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.
ICANT couldn't find his ass with both hands.
We may all be "sinners" but there is no reason to think we "need" a "saviour". And there is no reason to think that killing a Jew will save us from anything. It sounds more like two wrongs making a right.
Edited by ringo, : Spellin.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 11:09 AM ringo has replied
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 11:19 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 378 (846045)
12-27-2018 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
12-27-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Jesus Died For What? Ringo Explains
I sense a rebellious spirit in you. Perhaps it is an evil one. Then again, you could say the same about me since I ignored the guy wanting spare change on Christmas. he has stolen from our store before. Forgive me, father, for I have sinned.
In all seriousness, though...I think you overinflate your own common sense and reject too many people whom you disagree with...calling them stupid and misguided.
How was your relationship with your earthly father? Did you argue with him? Was he around when you were younger? You are an interesting scientific study...
a true thorn in the flesh of those of us who have spent years studying things that you challenge.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:03 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 378 (846046)
12-27-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Tangle
12-26-2018 3:19 PM


The Prodigal Sons Reject Authority
Tangle writes:
The relationship you guys talk of is like the relationship some children have with their imaginary friend. It seems real to them but the adults know they'll grow out of it.
Adults don't know everything. Who are you to tell me that my belief is imaginary? I would never step on anyone's toes and tell them that their belief was false or illogical unless I knew that it would be harmful to them to continue to think that way. I'll continue to pray for you and ringo. My imaginary friend will meet you both someday. Lest I sound arrogant, I'm open to correction, but not insults. Both of you need a good whipping for disrespecting Pastor ICANT.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2018 3:19 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 12-27-2018 2:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 12-28-2018 10:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 208 of 378 (846047)
12-27-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
12-27-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Jesus Died For What? Ringo Explains
ringo writes:
We may all be "sinners" but there is no reason to think we "need" a "saviour".
That's what the message tells us. Why are you picking and choosing which parts of the message you accept?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:03 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:48 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 209 of 378 (846048)
12-27-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by GDR
12-24-2018 5:10 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Again, you can't read the whole Bible in the same way.
You have to start by reading what it says, no matter what time or culture it came from. You can't decide arbitrarily to reject the parts you don't like and accept the parts you do like.
GDR writes:
I agree that there probably was a flood. Was it worldwide? No. Was it caused by Yahweh's intervention in the natural order? No.
I agree that there may have been a real Jesus. Did He rise from the dead? No. Could His death and fictional resurrection "save" us from anything? No.
The difference is that my conclusions are based on fact; yours are based on wishful thinking.
GDR writes:
If you like, we can go back to that rather hackneyed expression; "what would Jesus do?". He just wouldn't do it.
And yet, if Jesus is God, He did.
GDR writes:
What I would get out of it is that God is saying that even if the whole world has turned away from Him and His message of love and mercy except for one man, He will continue to reach out to us through that one man.
But that isn't what the story tells us. It says that if there is only one man who will accept God, then God is perfectly willing to destroy all of the others.
GDR writes:
If you look at the story of the Good Samaritan it doesn’t say that it is a parable. A literal reading would say that Jesus was describing an actual event although I’ve never heard anybody believing that to be the case.
I don't think there's much of a distinction between a parable and an actual event. The parables are actual events that are generalized to make a point.
GDR writes:
It is reading texts written 2000 years ago with a 21st century mindset of how writing is to be understood.
The cultural, etc. mindset of the Old and New Testaments are a lot closer to each other than they are to ours. You're the one who is imposing a lovey-dovey mindset on their stories and accepting/rejecting according to your own mindset.
GDR writes:
I believe that you are wrong and there will be ultimate justice, by a loving and merciful God.
And I believe Hitler is in Valhalla drinking mead with Odin. Neither belief has much value.
GDR writes:
However, as far as it being a literal worldwide flood I rejected it as read literally, but I didn’t avoid it.
You avoid it by putting your own nonsensical message into it.
GDR writes:
Of course that is all meaningless without the resurrection....
On the contrary, I would say that the resurrection makes Jesus' death irrelevant. It's like telling a homeless man how much you're sacrificing by giving him a dollar - and then having him give the dollar back.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 5:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 12-28-2018 6:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 210 of 378 (846049)
12-27-2018 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
12-27-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
... you may have been sent as a divine thorn in our flesh.
Or you may have been sent by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to show us how wrong Christianity is.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 12-27-2018 10:54 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024