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Author Topic:   So-Called "Persecution Against Christians":
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 42 of 115 (796393)
12-29-2016 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2016 10:56 AM


The evangelicals haven't realized that yet, so please be careful in how hard you guys force them.
Poor snowflakes. If I lived in an area dominated with them, I'll just spend *my* life in fear and in hiding without any support. That's a much better solution, right? We wouldn't want to upset bullies, so the bullied should just live with it until they kill themselves. Yay, isn't it great to live in a world were bullies have no consequences because the police and the courts are also bullies accountable to no-one but themselves.
And if you're a random atheist reading this thinking: "Fuck 'em, they're wrong and we're right and the law is the appropriate method.", as a theist I say to you: Congratulations, you are beating up a toddler.
Oh sure, they're toddlers. And as a queer person living in their community being spat at and denied employment I have all the power. Oh wait *they* have the power in this relationship.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2016 10:56 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 54 of 115 (796420)
12-29-2016 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
12-29-2016 7:41 PM


and if we are put in a position requiring us to do something personally that legitimizes it we will refuse and be prosecuted by the law
Professionally, not personally.
how that makes us the bully is beyond me. Everything else is irrelevant.
Its the bit where you enjoy the benefits of operating a public business but deliberately exclude members of a group that is regularly attacked and ostracized for doing nothing harmful to you and hope that a community of like minded people will support you in your tactics of exclusion which increases the probability of people engaging in self harm or suicide.
That bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-29-2016 7:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:37 AM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 57 of 115 (796425)
12-29-2016 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
12-29-2016 6:17 PM


Marriage is clearly defined in the Bible as a man and a woman, and homosexuality is clearly defined as a sin, not a legitimate "lifestyle."
And just as clearly, it is not possible to divorce since you cannot pull apart something God has put together.
You are not allowed to define another person's reading of the Bible
Exactly. So why do you?
You are not allowed to define another person's reading of the Bible or another's conscience, sorry.
And you are not allowed to open a business and refuse to provide services you provide everyone else to certain groups, sorry.
Marriage is clearly defined in the Bible as a man and a woman
A marriage is clearly defined in the United States of America as being between two people. You are living in the USA and not the Bible, right?
In any case you will find that the more Christian businesses are challenged to do something special or personal that validates gay marriage the more Christians will have to refuse and be punished for it.
Well sure, and those that call themselves Chrisitians that refuse black people or Jews or Satanists or Muslims will be punished just as Muslims that refuse Christians or Jews or black people or Satanists or homosexuals or Christians. Hardly persecution. They could just, you know, adjust their business to accommodate changes in the law like every other business must or face sanction.
Your thinking they are wrong carries no more weight than the Catholics thinking the Protestants wrong who refused to accept papal law and chose torture and death instead.
True, but you thinking the law is wrong carries no more weight than that either. You are subject to the law and your religion should give you no special exemptions be you True Christian or Catholic or Muslim Jew or Satanist.
Of course calling us evil will justify whatever your group want to do to us too
quote:
wickedness not to be named
quote:
disgusting
quote:
unnatural
quote:
criminal
quote:
mental disorder
quote:
shit eating paedophiles
quote:
sodomites
quote:
sinners
quote:
fags
quote:
destroying America
quote:
detestable
quote:
great evil
quote:
homos
quote:
terrorists
Well I suppose you'd know, Christians wrote the book on calling people evil to justify treating them like shit. Like when Jesus refused to have anything to do with the sinful woman, right?
And how childish of you to pretend I want to harm you in any way.
Whether you want it or not, you and the group you identify with, have. Either through actual actions, or supporting those who take those actions with money, words or votes.
I'm called to die for my beliefs and bless my enemies.
I don't see much of it. I see a lot of Christians condemning their enemies with bitter and hateful words, denying them employment, housing, medical care and other services. Why not bless those homosexuals who have secured a government licence to marry one another? You don't have to believe God is bringing them together in holy matrimony to do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-29-2016 6:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:52 AM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 68 of 115 (796449)
12-30-2016 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-30-2016 12:37 AM


That's ridiculous.
Which is why we ridicule you for it.
It would be so much easier not to fight it.
Sure, I could just 'take' being bullied but I find that just invites more bullying. So I'm more or less obliged to make the effort to fight it.
It takes courage to stand up to a law like this one and we are the ones who suffer from it, not you.
Well sure. It takes courage to stand up to laws against murder too, but the murderer who goes to prison suffers less than their victims and their victims families. Likewise, being sued and going out of business is better than losing your family and your home and your job and your life. So no, the homosexual community has suffered more from the bullies than the bullies have faced legal consequences for their bullying.
Nobody's enjoying excluding people, just don't ask us to validate gay marriage, we're open to anything else you want.
I don't need or want your validation and people are being sued for failing to validate things. A few people are being sued for refusing operating a public business that refuses to provide services to certain bullied people.
You don't have to go to Christians for your gay wedding
If I live in a community of 70% Christians there is a 70% chance any one of the service providers for a gay marriage is a Christian. I don't ask, but if I have a flower arranger, a photographer, a cake maker and a caterer and...all the other services typically required for a wedding - the chances are that one of them will be Christian. Asking homosexuals to go out of their way to avoid Christians is pushing an unfair burden onto a group that is already suffering under unfair burdens. This would be bullying.
but you want to get even with us
I can't and don't want to deny you medical care, housing public services and employment. I just want you to suffer consequences if you do it to me.
because we represent all the pain you've experienced.
Caused the pain. That's why they have standing to sue.
Why, I don't know.
Because the actions we are suing you for are harmful.
We aren't the only group that can't support gay marriage, orthodox Jews can't and neither can Muslims. They also run bakeries, make wedding cakes, arrange flowers and do photography. So do atheists.
I'll sue them if they refuse me service too. But there are less of them, so it's less likely anyone will run into this problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:29 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 69 of 115 (796451)
12-30-2016 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
12-30-2016 12:52 AM


By rights we should not provide wedding services to polygamists or divorced people either, but if you keep the situation to yourself that conflict of conscience wouldn't become a problem.
Odd that the Catholics generally bother doing it but Protestants prefer don't ask, don't tell policies. Almost like they want us to be silent. Why silence us?
Sorry, but we will deny service for any purpose condemned by God
Sorry, but if you do this, you'll get sued.
And it's we who suffer for this
The victims of your bullying suffer more.
Go ahead persecute us.
I don't want to and I am not so doing. Suing someone for breaching business regulations is not persecution, denying someone service is persecution.
You've been waiting for years to "get even," haven't you?
I'll take a small measure of justice, but it's not really possible or desired to get even.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:52 AM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 77 of 115 (796487)
12-30-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
12-30-2016 12:29 PM


I meant that it would be easier for us Christians not to fight it, but just go along to get along.
I know what you meant, I was turning it around on purpose. Just because something is difficult doesn't make it right and it doesn't make you brave or worthy for doing the work to oppress others even as laws are passed to inhibit you.
Resisting the law costs us.
Yes, it costs all lawbreakers. THAT'S THE POINT. The reason the laws exist, is because True Christian behaviour costs US and you won't even admit it!
Of course if YOU insist on fighting us on the basis of the new law, suing us etc.,
We've been fighting for ages Faith, because our livelihoods and lives depended on it. You only seem to care so much because you are finally starting to lose (don't worry though, Christians find lots of ways to be lawfully shitty to homosexuals still).
suing us etc.,
For damages you caused us. You just don't, nay can't, get it.
it will also be the Christians who suffer.
Well the True Christians are dying off faster than they are being replaced so it won't be for long. Homosexuals have been suffering for the entire history of your nation, much worse than a few people getting sued. They'd be humiliated and denied healthcare and jobs and housing. Those are more important than providing wedding services.
Those who share the biblical view I'm talking about will not give in so you can sue us and drive us out of business to your heart's content.
Thanks, we will. Enjoy revelling in the self inflicted martyrdom. But don't think we're the bullies when you are the one causing damages and getting sued for it.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 12:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 1:35 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 81 of 115 (796498)
12-30-2016 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
12-30-2016 1:35 PM


Homosexual acts break GOD's law, we're only breaking a human law that itself violates God's law.
Whether or not it breaks God's law is up to God and acting homosexuals should only be answerable to God, not to you and bakers. Breaking human laws makes you answerable to humans and God, since the President that signed that law was put into place by God.
I'm quite aware that you suffer from all this, but that doesn't make you right about the legal situation.
My suffering doesn't, the Constitition dictates that I'm right about the legal situation.
I grant that you are in a very difficult position. I don't know what the solution is, but punishing God isn't going to help you in the end.
I'm not punishing God. I *can't* punish God. God may punish me, but that's business between me and Him and is absolutely nothing to do with you. Your judgement on this matter is irrelevant. For God does not show favouritism.
It costs a lot for a homosexual to convert to Christ, and that is the only solution I know of for your dilemma.
I'm not a homosexual and I married a woman, so I guess I'm a little more safe, eh?
Otherwise once you have legal power you can punish us to a pulp, maybe mitigate some of your suffering that way, but God's people are not going to go away.
The demographics disagree. Most people that agree with you are your age, and becoming less and less relevant to the legislature who are increasingly rejecting your perspective. The young 'ens are leaving the faith entirely in droves, and those that stay are increasingly rejecting the 'homosexuals should be treated poorly' gospel.
This is a supernatural thing and the more Christians suffer in the world the more the tribe grows.
I guess God's power is failing then.
Or maybe the Rapture will occur soon and we'll be out of your life for good anyway.
*fingers crossed*
I found out recently that homosexual acts are the only sin described in the Old Testament books of the Law that are called "abominations." Not heterosexual adultery, not murder, none of the others, even sins punishable by death.
You found recently? Presumably someone told you, rather than you know, reading the damned thing.
quote:
And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
Lev 7, KJV
quote:
Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it:
{most animals, then}
Deu 7, KJV
quote:
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12, KJV
quote:
Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deu 17, KJV
quote:
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
Deu 17 KJV
quote:
None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness:
...
Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God
....
Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto
...
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations
For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you
For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations....
Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you
Levi 18, KJV.
quote:
And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.
Lev 19, KJV
quote:
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14 and 53, KJV
quote:
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18, KJV
quote:
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deu 23, KJV
quote:
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD
Deu 24., KJV
quote:
Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.
Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small.
But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee
or all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deu 25, KJV
quote:
Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD
Deu 27, KJV
quote:
For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.
Pro 3, KJV
quote:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven {the so called deadly sins} are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6, KJV
quote:
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8, KJV
quote:
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Pro 11, KJV
quote:
They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD:
Pro 11, KJV
quote:
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD
Pro 12, KJV
quote:
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD
Pro 15. KJV
quote:
Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD
Pro 16, KJV
quote:
It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness:
Pro 16, KJV
quote:
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD
Pro 17, KJV
quote:
incense is an abomination unto me
Isa 1, KJV
So yeah.
Not heterosexual adultery,
Lechery and lust is an abomination. Lying with your neighbours wife is an abomination. Try again.
not murder
Unless murder is NOT WICKED, you are wrong again.
That's a very severe judgment.
As severe as it is for bringing a lobster to church, fraud, lying, lust, laziness....
Otherwise the term "abomination" is usually reserved for idolatries that involve demons.
Wrong.
It makes me wonder if there is a demonic element in homosexuality.
I wonder if there is a demonic element to your ignoring God's word and promulgating lies about it. Oh wait, that's an abomination too. Welcome to the club, Faith.
Some elements in the LGBT arena involve feelings that amount to obsessions, like that feeling of HAVING to cross-dress to get relief from some kind of psychgological pressure.
Like lecherously grabbing women by the pussy, or lying about lecherously grabbing women by the pussy.
You can believe what you like, but when you insist that because there is a 'demon influence' in my clothing preferences I should be refused a drink by a bartender, lifesaving intervention from a doctor.....then your wickedness is harming me and you are being a bully and persecuting me.
If I retaliate by asking a duly elected or appointed official to determine how this damage can be compensated financially, I am not persecuting you. Indeed if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
Or whinge and complain and claim martyrdom and persecution for your wicked acts and your victimising others. Whatever floats your boat.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 1:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 2:58 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 85 of 115 (796503)
12-30-2016 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
12-30-2016 2:58 PM


I did think you said you were homosexual and some things you said implied your "wife" was a man. Sorry if I got that wrong.
I'm bisexual, as is my wife. That's probably what confused you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 3:18 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2016 3:19 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 88 of 115 (796507)
12-30-2016 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
12-30-2016 3:18 PM


So your wife is a bisexual woman and not a bisexual man?
Correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 3:18 PM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 112 of 115 (796554)
12-31-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
12-30-2016 10:57 PM


EvC takes the cake when it comes to treating other opinions as evil trash
You just spent a long time saying things like
quote:
I found out recently that homosexual acts are the only sin described in the Old Testament books of the Law that are called "abominations." Not heterosexual adultery, not murder, none of the others, even sins punishable by death.
quote:
It makes me wonder if there is a demonic element in homosexuality.
quote:
Some elements in the LGBT arena involve feelings that amount to obsessions, like that feeling of HAVING to cross-dress to get relief from some kind of psychgological pressure.
quote:
Romans 1 identifies homosexual acts as the consequence of idolatrous practices with false gods.
quote:
I know you want to deny that there is anything especially sinful about homosexuality, and I always thought that myself, but I believe overall the Bible does single it out for special condemnation.
quote:
homosexuality... is the only sin directly associated with demonic idolatries in Romans 1.
quote:
ONLY homosexuality is specifically called an abomination.
quote:
I consider the felt need to dress like the opposite sex a "strange" sin, or any compulsive behavior the person "needs" to do
Which is saying that I AM EVIL TRASH. You didn't even bother to tie it into the topic of Christian persecution, while reinforcing and justifying all the persecution queer-folk have suffered. You are an awful person who is contributing to the harmful bullying, pain and suffering we have on this earth.
For all your talk of Romans 1, you neglected Paul's admonishment in Romans 2 regarding judging others. You will be judged as harshly as those that you judge, remember that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 12-30-2016 10:57 PM Faith has not replied

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