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Author Topic:   So-Called "Persecution Against Christians":
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1 of 115 (792182)
10-07-2016 1:01 AM


FaceBook offered this link at patheos.com: America Isn’t Growing Hostile Towards Christians, It’s Growing Hostile Towards Religious Bullies.. One excerpt from that page is:
quote:
However, here’s the part that’s true: America isn’t growing hostile towards Christians— it is growing hostile towards religious bullies, and there’s a big difference between those two things.
Few sane people give a hoot if one is a practicing Christian. There’s no movement to banish churches and put them under government regulation like in China. No one is stopping us from gathering together with other believers, from feeding the poor, or even from standing on the street corner with obnoxious banners that say turn or burn.
Religious freedom and free speech is alive and well in America. These freedoms aren’t just tolerated, but embraced.
What is not embraced, and what the majority of citizens (Christians citizens, mind you) are growing increasingly hostile towards, are fringe Christian extremists who are trying to institute their own version of sharia law that infringes on the rights and liberties of the rest of us.
There’s a massive difference between freedom to practice one’s religion in a pluralistic society where we all equally have that right, versus enshrining one’s extremist religious views in laws that are imposed on the rest of us. There’s a big difference between saying that you want to be free and not forced to marry someone of the same sex, versus wanting to deny that right to someone else you don’t even know. There’s a big difference between wanting the freedom to own a business and conduct commerce freely in the public square, versus demanding to run a business that discriminates and infringes on the basic rights and dignities of everyone else.
No one is trying to stop you from being a Christian. The country is not growing hostile towards Christians. It’s just growing hostile towards extremist, religious bullies, who are trying to hijack the nation and force everyone to live under their own set of morals and ethics.
Growing hostile towards that kind of nonsense is not the same thing as growing hostile towards Christianity. It’s not even close.
"True Christians" will undoubtedly bridle at this, but I tend to think of certain activities of fundamentalistist in terms of viral infections, epidemics even. That is influenced in part by Michael Crichton's resolution of the problem in his first well-known novel (his sixth novel actually), The Andromeda Strain. Here was this alien pathogen that could coagulate all the blood in the entire circulatory system in an instant (albeit more slowly outside of a narrow pH range), but since that virulence greatly reduces its ability to infect more hosts, the less virulent strains start to predominate.
During the "Jesus Freak Movement" (which I lived through), fundamentalist Christianity was highly virulent. A major factor of that was End-Time Revelations and all that nonsense. After the mid-1970's I lost track of the local fundamentalist nonsense, having enlisted and been shipped elsewhere, but later I heard of a charlatan who wreaked havoc on the local major fundamentalist church, the center of the "Jesus Freak Movement" (ie, the massive influx of those members had propelled it into the Mega-Church category). That charlatan mispresented himself as a former Satanist who in the 1980's cause all kind of havoc. I will regard him much as the Mule in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, an anomaly who upset the natural evolution of things.
Circa 1970, the new converts to Christian fundamentalism were mainly the burned-out hippies. They then engaged in very aggressive street proselytizing which drew in some number of new converts. We'll return to the overall consequences of those efforts.
My high school best friend's mother and a few family members converted, so I became something of a "fellow traveller" (a McCarthyism term) as I observed that sub-culture while not actually becoming a member. Circa 1970, major emphasis was given to the End-Times and the Book of Revelations. This was the period when the infection was most virulent. Many new converts. Many new and very highly motivated proselytizers. The situation very quickly devolved to where you almost literally could not turn around without some religious nut preaching at you and trying to convert you.
Ok, let's take that kind of religious community forward in time. The earliest Christians were convinced that the Second Coming was imminent, could happen any moment now. It is said that they wouldn't even bother to plant any trees, because nobody would ever be around to pick any of the resultant fruits. And yet the Second Coming did not happen and the resultant fruit of those trees planted nonetheless by non-believers was indeed eaten. The prophecies proved false ... and were immediately forgotten.
Similarly, the Jesus Freak Movement expected the End Times to be immediately at hand. But as with that prior generation two millennia earlier, their families were still there and their children were still there and their grand-children were also still there. Despite all their religious beliefs, life still went on and their families still went on and their careers still went on.
And over time, the virulence of Christian fundamentalism diminished, as with any virus.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 31 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 5:18 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2016 10:56 AM dwise1 has replied
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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 115 (792184)
10-07-2016 3:35 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the So-Called "Persecution Against Christians": thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 3 of 115 (792211)
10-07-2016 11:32 AM


Freedom v. Privilege
In my opinion, what we are really seeing is the loss of Christian Privilege, which some Christians see as persecution. There was a time in US history where the Bible was offered as valid justification for a law. Why was homosexuality against the law? The Bible says so.
These clear violations of constitutional rights were never challenged, so they stayed on the books. As US society became more secular those laws came under challenge, and they were ruled unconstitutional, and rightly so. Over the last 50 years, Christianity has lost a lot of sway in how law is written and on which laws are challenged.
The loss of influence in government is seen as an attack on Christianity by some. I hear it from my parents all of the time when they have to preface religious statements with "I know it's not politically correct . . .". They feel persecuted just because people don't automatically agree with them, or because Christianity is not automatically agreed to be the law of the land.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 11:41 AM Taq has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 115 (792212)
10-07-2016 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dwise1
10-07-2016 1:01 AM


Rights vs Responsibilities
Thanks for sharing. Thats an honest story. You do not strike me as a militant atheist. Do I strike you as an extremist? Just asking. I am quite literal in regards to many of my beliefs, but I have never supported legislation of morality.
My Pastor is strong in his beliefs, and is against discrimination towards men of color. GRID. The Gang reduction initiative works to develop and support a network of partner agencies and programs to provide effective and efficient prevention strategies that collectively strengthen families and communities, provide effective and efficient case management intervention strategies to high-risk gang members and their families, and ensure effective enforcement of violent gang crimes.
I understand the cultural battle. Faith based organizations should be embraced as well as other forms of community assets, but no church or religion should predominate and exclude all other religious or secular approaches. The keyword is balance. Thank God there is no religious persecution in this country.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dwise1, posted 10-07-2016 1:01 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Asgara, posted 10-07-2016 1:02 PM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 115 (792214)
10-07-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
10-07-2016 11:32 AM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
In my opinion, what we are really seeing is the loss of Christian Privilege, which some Christians see as persecution. There was a time in US history where the Bible was offered as valid justification for a law. Why was homosexuality against the law? The Bible says so.
This reminds me of a rapper named Bizzle. He wrote a song challenging Macklemores
Same Love video.
Bizzle Responds To Macklemore's "Same Love"
Christian Rapper Bizzle Responds to Macklemore
Free speech lives!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 10-07-2016 11:32 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 10-07-2016 11:58 AM Phat has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 6 of 115 (792216)
10-07-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-07-2016 11:41 AM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
Phat writes:
Free speech lives!
Racists have the right to tell the whole world how inferior blacks are.
It is unconstitutional to write laws that discriminate against blacks.
Do you understand the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 11:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 12:20 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 10-07-2016 12:52 PM Taq has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 115 (792221)
10-07-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taq
10-07-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
yes i do

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 10-07-2016 11:58 AM Taq has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 115 (792228)
10-07-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taq
10-07-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
It's unconstitutional to write laws that discriminate against inferior people, whether they're black or homosexual or Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 10-07-2016 11:58 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 1:16 PM ringo has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 9 of 115 (792234)
10-07-2016 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
10-07-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Rights vs Responsibilities
Phat writes:
Thank God there is no religious persecution in this country.
Do you really believe this? Don't you mean there is no persecution of Christians in this country? There is plenty of persecution of other belief systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 11:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 1:14 PM Asgara has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 115 (792235)
10-07-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Asgara
10-07-2016 1:02 PM


Re: Rights vs Responsibilities
yes thats what I meant. We still need to work on our bias

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Asgara, posted 10-07-2016 1:02 PM Asgara has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 115 (792237)
10-07-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
10-07-2016 12:52 PM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
inferior? dont you mean minority?
Minorities may be a smaller percentage of the population, but are hardly inferior

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 10-07-2016 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 10-07-2016 1:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 115 (792241)
10-07-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
10-07-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Freedom v. Privilege
Phat writes:
Minorities may be a smaller percentage of the population, but are hardly inferior
My point is that it doesn't matter if they are inferior. If every single black person on earth was inferior in every conceivable way to every single white person, that is still not an excuse for discriminating against them. Democracy should not be only for the superior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 10-07-2016 1:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 13 of 115 (792261)
10-07-2016 3:46 PM


Here is an revealing quote from the co-author of the famous Morris flood book
It involved the execution of Baal worshippers sho promoted their religion.
quote:
Solomon To The Exile
Studies In Kings And Chronicles
John C. Whitcomb, Jr.
(Baker Book House, 1971)
p.56
The Execution of False Prophets (I Kings 18:40)
What shall we say of Elijah’s treatment of the humiliated prophets of Baal? Should he not have reckoned their public disgrace sufficient punishment? God, who knows the utter depths of human depravity (Jer. 13:23; 17:9), had already settled the question. False prophets were to die without mercy (Deut. 13:5; 18:20; cf. 7:2), for their words, like a deadly cancer, would spread confusion, unbelief, and ultimate disaster to all who heeded them ( II Tim. 2:17).
p.57
Far more dangerous to the well-being of any people than thieves or even murderers are the disseminators of doctrinal errors (Isa. 9:14-17; Matt. 23:15).
We have a mindset here that is (more than)a bit disturbing IMO.
It is a snap shot of a creationist (cum deluge/flood) mindset.

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2016 4:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 14 of 115 (792264)
10-07-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
10-07-2016 3:46 PM


Re: Here is an revealing quote from the co-author of the famous Morris flood book
cum deluge
But seriously, I can't see any point that you are trying to make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-07-2016 3:46 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-07-2016 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 15 of 115 (792265)
10-07-2016 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2016 4:06 PM


"cum" = WITH (meaning creationism comes with the genocidal flood)
People being killed for sins and beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2016 4:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2016 4:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

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