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Author Topic:   Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 175 (713872)
12-17-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
12-17-2013 11:09 AM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Are we getting back to the old "blame God for evil" game?
Yes we are:
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
He admits it.
Phat writes:
The very idea of evil, according to some, is the dark side of free will.
"Free will" is pretty much a nonsense concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 175 (713947)
12-18-2013 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
12-17-2013 12:51 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Look at it like a movie script. Within the script, characters say the lines they are assigned. Imagine, however, if the director allowed them to ad lib. Would the movie still be the whim of the director?
The director in this case is also the editor. He can cut out any ad libs that he doesn't approve of. The actors have the "freedom" to say what they want but it has no effect on the outcome.
On a side note, the director is also the script writer. If the actor did come up with a brilliant line that isn't in the script, the script writer isn't omniscient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 12:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-18-2013 2:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 100 of 175 (714019)
12-19-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
12-18-2013 2:47 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Do you have any objections to obeying Jesus...as well as getting to know Him?
If you've read my posts you ought to know that I do advocate obeying Jesus - not because of who he is/was but because it's the right thing to do.
Phat writes:
if God gave you a chance to voice your objections to the way men wrote about and perceived Him...what would you say...?
What would I say to Him? Nothing. If He exists, He already knows what I think.
What would I say to Christians? Read my posts.
Phat writes:
Additionally how would you want Him to be?
I think I've mentioned before, I'd like Him to leave me alone. I can do without the "joy" that Christians exhibit here. I'd also like to do without Hell. If I had to choose between the two, it would be a toss up.
Do I have the free will to choose between two bad options? Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-18-2013 2:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 175 (714031)
12-19-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2013 12:05 PM


Re: The bringer of Balance is usually Biased
Catholic Scientist writes:
The only way to get it back into balance is to remove the shit from the scale.
Why not just add good to the other side?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2013 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2013 12:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 175 (714039)
12-19-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2013 12:15 PM


Re: The bringer of Balance is usually Biased
Catholic Scientist writes:
ringo writes:
Why not just add good to the other side?
Because you'll probably fall to the Dark Side.
You'd have to hold on with one hand and shovel with the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2013 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 175 (714188)
12-20-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-19-2013 1:05 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Has humanity lost the ability to be good?
Of course not. The issue is what causes us to be good. You say it's dogmatic obedience. Paul and I say it's conscience. Conscience is what we gained with the so-called "Fall".
Phat writes:
If what you believe is true, perhaps you additionally believe that Jesus need not shepherd you through life...you can find your own way, thank you very much.
A shepherd doesn't lead every sheep. The sheep follow each other in the direction the shepherd is going.
And don't forget that there were sheep before there were shepherds. The sheep can get along without the shepherd. He only leads them for his own purposes.
Phat writes:
In other words, we save ourselves(or redeem ourselves) entirely through our own actions?
That's what Jesus said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-19-2013 1:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 175 (714191)
12-20-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
...but I'd say that the Shepherds purpose is better than anything that we can come up with on our own.
The shepherd's purpose is to shear you and eat your children.
Phat writes:
... if you observe this world and read the news you will see sheep behaving very badly.
Those are goats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 129 of 175 (714194)
12-20-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:30 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...
Jesus became human to demonstrate that it is possible for humans to do it themselves. Even if we do it imperfectly, so did He.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 175 (714305)
12-21-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:48 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
It may have been true that He preached this message to His own Jewish Disciples. They had no empowerment nor grace...for He had not yet died and risen.
quote:
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
We have been empowered right from the start.
Phat writes:
The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God.
I believe He did it imperfectly because the Bible says so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 12-22-2013 10:55 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 175 (714439)
12-22-2013 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
12-22-2013 10:55 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
Yes, we should try and do our best. But we will fail.
You're contradicting God. He told Cain that if we do well we will be accepted. He didn't say He was setting us up to fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 12-22-2013 10:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 12-22-2013 4:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 175 (714512)
12-23-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
12-22-2013 4:14 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
are you assuming that God talks the same way today as He did with Cain?
You answered your own question:
quote:
Gods principles never change, but the way that He deals with humans has...
The principle that we can resist evil hasn't changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 12-22-2013 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 12-23-2013 10:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 175 (714517)
12-23-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
12-23-2013 10:58 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
And how do we resist it?
One day at a time.
quote:
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
It probably isn't significant but I like the way the Revelation is narrated in the past tense. The "prophet" doesn't talk about something that will happen in the future; he talks about something he saw happening.
You seem to be another foolish virgin who's so anxious to see Jesus coming that you don't notice He's already here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 12-23-2013 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 175 (714835)
12-28-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Raphael
12-27-2013 7:58 PM


Re: Raphael and Gods Plan
Raphael writes:
- Was Jesus a real historical figure?
- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously?
Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Raphael, posted 12-27-2013 7:58 PM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 3:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 150 of 175 (743563)
12-02-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
02-20-2014 3:54 AM


Re: Jesus: God or Human?
Phat writes:
They did not take His life. He gave it.
You could say the same about John Dillinger or Charles Manson and it would be equally meaningless.
Phat writes:
Others believe that He was sent to die...becoming a once and forever atonement of humanities shortcomings.
Atonement is a really stupid concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 3:54 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 169 of 175 (743787)
12-04-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-04-2014 5:37 AM


Re: Timeclock Amnesty
Phat writes:
What I have observed is that the responsible ones keep being responsible while the slackers continue to incur points against their record. The responsible ones never expect timeclock amnesty...yet they benefit from it as do the slackers. Nobody refuses to accept it.
The ones who don't incur points aren't really benefiting from the amnesty.
A better analogy would be if anybody who didn't accept the amnesty got fired. Of course, firing the responsible workers along with the irresponsible workers would be irresponsible on the part of management.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-04-2014 5:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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