Keep in Mind

A little side note to keep in mind about the Bible that most people on both sides of the arguement forget. THE BIBLE USES SYMBOLS ALOT. In the Revalations, there are several instances where 'days' can mean different amounts of time(I'll give feedback later but it's late and I want to sleep). Genesis is doubtfully an exception. Those 6 'days' could have been billions of years, and as for the Big Bang, didn't God say 'let there be light'? He also made man last. I'm not sure I believe we began as tree-dwelling apes,but if we did then the Bible also aknowledges that because man was made last, and was His greatest creation. Maybe not the nicest since the apple incident, but we certainly dominated everything. We're even smart enough to question God's existence. Not saying that it's bad or good, I'm just saying that it certainly agrees with scripture, because in many a Psalm they mention mankind's defiance. Just a little something to think about, I'm interested as to what people might say. (PS yes I'm not super informed and I'm getting a C in biology. I'm also not familiar with this site so if this has been posted a billion times don't shove it in my face please.)------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"BELIEVE what you like, in your IGNORANCE, but please look at the EVIDENCE for man having evolved from apes, and learn to EVALUATE the evidence, before you claim to KNOW anything about it."Personally, I KNOW that I can COMPREHEND your FORCEFUL attack on a rather PASSIVE statement I put in the firstplace without EXCESSIVE
use of EMPHASIS, comprende?First of all, I said 'I don't know if I believe we evolved from apes or not'. That doesn't mean I know we did or I know we didn't, hence the 'I don't know'. I just said Christian Scripture would agree either way. What, is your evidence too high and mighty to be agreed with or something? Sorry to shove a little too much chloride in your sodium chloride this morning, doc.Another thing. I even mentioned at the end of my post that I may not know as much in the scientific field as some of you here. I'm on this forum as a learning experience(and to have something to do when I can't sleep at night for tragic personal reasons that you may not be able to calculate, Einstein.)"EVALUATE the evidence, before you claim to KNOW anything about it."
Yeah, I agree. Problem is, I think you'd better practice what you preach because you sure as anything didn't evaluate my statement before you attacked it with utmost modesty ."...detailed study or a few university courses usually gets things in perspective."Right. There's nothing that good ole school can't fix. Spiritual beliefs? Go take a university course! Girlfriend breaks up with you? Go take a university course! The sky is falling? Go take a uni... WAIT A MINUTE! The sky can't fall because SCIENCE(not to MENTION my overused EMPHASIS) shows that it is just ATMOSPHERE and some OTHER stuff so it CAN'T fall. You HEATHEN, you have DEFIED the will of Science...And so on. You need to save your blunt attacks for more assertive statements that attack your arguement, not agree with it.I've 'evaluated' many people that stick their know-it-all noses into things without regard to the other party's purpose. That's something I DO know about, and you ain't gonna learn about that from a university course. God bless you.(((After I sent this I realized he was replying to message 5 and not the statement that I made to begin with . Sorry. But at the same time I won't change it because I feel it still addresses the point well.)------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 11-27-2003]

Whoa there, I guess I took the sarcasm a little too far and got some people angry. Sorry.I had no intention of offense, just clarification on what I thought about equalling somebody's beliefs with thinking the moon was made of cheese(that would be pretty neat, though...) The emphasis thing wasn't all that serious, I was just having a little fun at Mike's
expense, with no hard feelings intended, and the same goes with all the other unnecessary jeers.But anyway, about the 'made humans last' statement. My point was that of the 6 day creation we were last, and the fact that other things came after us could've very well come from natural biogenesis, or God could've added stuff later. Who knows.But as for the open heart surgury thing, don't forget that creationists feel the same way about people who say God is a myth. To these people(myself included) that's kind of like saying that W. Bush is a myth(I AM NOT comparing HIM to God, but you get the idea)The thing is, faith of all flavors have lasted, with the general beliefs unchanged through millenia. Science can only speak tentatively, and stuff is being proven and disproven all the time. Who knows? Someday we may find out that saying blood pumps from the heart will be like saying ants come from rocks. Farfetched? I sure think so, but you really can't tell with the way science works. I'd like to elaborate more but for once I'm friggin tired. More good stuff can be expected by saturday.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

many thanks for the pointers, and many more for giving them with politeness.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

".... studied many other religions, mysticism and several cults..."You obviously didn't study them too hard, because on the subject of lucifarionism and their other denominations (Often associated as satanism)you'll find that some of their experiences/actions are pretty solid proof that natural reasoning is only skin deep, and believe me, I've been around it once or twice. I find it hard to believe that someone could sit around during a gathering(and possibly a 'channeling') and say "Oh, well that's not real." And if you KNOW what I'm talking about, you have been present during the event, and you still think it's all a bunch of hocus pocus, then abra kadabra to you too. I don't understand.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 12-02-2003][This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 12-02-2003]

"if you knew what Satanism was, you'd realize that Satanists are typically atheists, and don't actually believe in Satan (or any sort of magic). "I agree. Satanism is the opposite of Christianity. It is indulgence and the doubting of spirituality. But remember I mentioned that I wasn't talking about 'satanism', but groups of people often branded as satanists.(Edited because I typed 'branded as cattle' instead of 'branded as satanists'. I've got no idea why I typed that, except that I had a glass of milk before I got on the computer a few minutes ago)
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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 12-03-2003]

I mentioned in the very first message that I'm not as well versed as some people."This was all over 40 years ago"Sheesh. That means you've studied this stuff for more than twice as long as I've been alive.I guess people just see different sides of the elephant. Education can't brainwash anybody enough to change outlooks on things like spiritual belief, some people believe and some don't I guess. What you mentioned at the end we really can't argue about, it's all about perception and what you feel, end of story.But anyways, I think this whole thing's gotten a hair off topic, the whole point of the original post was saying that Scripture can agree with science. I asserted nothing more. Maybe I should make a new thread for all these new issues. Anyway, I've got stuff to do tomorrow so I won't be back on until sunday. But I appriciate reading things from other points of view thusfar.------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Now that's one thing I agree with you completely about, because everyone needs to ask themselves why they believe what they believe, and it needs to be an answer other than 'because The Bible/X Scientist says so'.A good reason for accepting something as real will vary between people as much as people will vary between favorite sports teams, in the way that a lot of people don't seem to have an answer unless a certain belief seems to be 'winning', in which case they jump on the bandwagon.Now, this is my standpoint on that issue. I DEFINETELY believe in things that I can detect with the 5 senses. It was either Plato or Aristotle(I ALWAYS mix those two up) that said the material world is false, and there is a spiritual "other side" that is the true reality.What a bunch of crap!What you can detect with your senses is real. How so? Because the majority of material nouns can be detected by all 5 different senses(which can be considered different opinions in a way) as the same thing. The eyes are not a window to a different world than your ears reveal to you. But on the subject of nouns and grammar, there are also abstract nouns. These abstract nouns themselves cannot be detected by the 5 senses. You can't see overconfidence itself, but you can see proof that it exist, as an abstract yet active influence in reality, through the senses in living things. I know I certainly saw proof of overconfidence in a wrestling tournament yesterday .I believe that the existence of a higher power beyond the boundries of explination is similar to any other 'abstract' noun. It's definetely there, I could never list how many things I see everyday that prove it. Holy Scriptures of any religion may have a few minor flaws on what happened where to our TENTATIVE current standings on history and science, but the fact remains that you can't scientifically prove the existence of overconfidence(Well,maybe by surveying fans of the Oakland Raiders)but people can agree that it's there. I think it's strange that God, as an abstract noun, is so hard to believe when His existence is in a similar category as any other abstract noun.That's a basic outline of why I personally accept things as real, you may agree or disagree about that, and I'd be more than willing to hear a different approach to that concept.You said you have a few 'big gaps where I just have no answers, such as 'why should a universe exist', or 'what is consciousness'.Just for conversation's sake this is what I personally think about those.Why should a universe exist: Same reason any life form exists.(not to reproduce, because if the being has no purpose to begin with,
reproducing another organism will just make another bleak and meaningless existence.) That reason is to make a reason to exist, and I'll elaborate.Our purposes differ. Some of us want to spread the Word. Others want to create the most powerful nuclear weapon, or the best heavy metal album to ever exist.I believe, and this is excluding my spiritual belief as much as possible, that we create and decide our purpose. We ourselves are our own purpose, because for those people who are 'destined' to save the Spotted African Penguin or whatever, there had to have been someone who nearly wiped 'em out fulfilling his purpose.(The purpose being, perhaps, selling CANNED spotted african penguin) Sure, our purposes contradict, but they are purposes, the best part being that we only need ourselves and eachother to create them. It is possible that 'purpose' will ultimately create apocalyptic war, but that's where religion comes in. I am aware that religion causes as much trouble as it stops, but that's only when people disobey the golden rule of every human and spiritual philosopher.As for consciousness, I don't quite understand what you mean by that so I can't give my own 2 cents.WHEW! That was probably the longest post in history. Sorry, guys!------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 12-07-2003]

Thanks for the correction. Those are some good questions, and nobody can really argue about them. Someone could say 'Perhaps it could be signs of a soul', but then again animals can see too. Well, then again, some cannot. And of course the arguement circles endlessly from there.Your gut feeling is probably right, this won't get anywhere in the grand debate scene, but I'm curious to see what anybody else has to say regarding these things, and how many people even have an answer.Anybody want to pitch in their point of view?------------------
Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.