Keep in Mind

Please feel free to believe whatever you wish. Believe that the moon is made of cheese, that the earth is flat, that you have a gardian angel looking after you, or whatever.But please do not confuse your beliefs with science or facts. If you choose to believe that the power is off when you repair that wall socket, you might be in for a shock.Many of us go through this phase as teenagers, creating one's own world view from all the bits of knowledge we have accumulated. Thinking that 'believing' has something to do with 'knowing'. But some detailed study or a few university courses usually gets things in perspective.BELIEVE what you like, in your IGNORANCE, but please look at the EVIDENCE for man having evolved from apes, and learn to EVALUATE the evidence, before you claim to KNOW anything about it.Mike.

OK, Born2preach, I admit I came on too strong there. I got angry with the statement 'I don't believe we descended from apes' (I didn't look up the exact words).
This seems to express the view that all the research and theorizing by thousands of scientists over 150 years is just not relevant. Believe what you like! To hell with evidence!
Mike.

I had another think about my response while shaving, and would like to add a couple of points.I wanted to emphasize a few words, but couldn't find an option to change my text style and use italics, so I used capitals. I did not intend to 'yell' at you.Regarding my reaction, Zealot, imagine that you are a heart specialist, and in the course of a conversation someone says "I don't believe the heart pumps blood around the body. That is just a theory." Do you laugh at him for being a stupid idiot, or get angry with him for being a stupid idiot? (I do not mean to imply that anyone here is a stupid idiot!). Anyway, I get annoyed with people who think they can believe whatever they like regardless of the evidence.So, if you know of any evidence which contradicts the theory of human evolution, and which outweighs all the evidence in favour of it, please produce it. If you believe what you do because it offends your dignity to be told you descended from an ape, then you need to study some history. We have already learned that the Earth is not the centre of the universe (or solar system), the solar system is not the centre of the galaxy, and the galaxy is just one among billions. We can no longer believe we are the "Lords of Creation".But if you hold your view because of a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, then I guess there is nothing further to discuss.Mike.

So the Bible must be true because the Bible says it is true!Why am I reasoning in sinful ways? You reject 9999 of the 10000 (or whatever) religions. I just reject one more than you. But my reasoning is sinful and yours is reasonable! Why do you reject Islam, or Taoism, or Buddhism?If you want to believe in God, that is your business. But when you come up with statements about scientific theories, I suggest you provide some arguments or evidence supporting your views. Otherwise they belong in the trash can along with Atlantis, Scientology, Astral travelling, etc.

Thanks, Schraf, Looks like I can sit back and leave it to you, while I go and argue about young suns!
Mike.

Same here. Studied Christianity (Read the New Testament twice, and much of the Old), Then studied many other religions, mysticism and several cults, finally studied science and philosophy to determine what I NEEDED to believe and what I could JUSTIFY belief in, and ended up an atheist.
Mike.

Dear Born2preach, how do you decide how thoroughly I have to study something to form a valid conclusion? For your information, I was a Scientologist for 7 years, spent a couple of years in the Subud movement, and several years studying Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.I have read about a quarter of the Koran, a bit of the Zend Avesta (Zoroastrianism), studied the Hindu Vedas, Vedanta, Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita, read five translations of the Taoist Tao-Teh-Ching, studied the Sufis (read the Muntiq-ut-Tair or 'Conference of Birds' by Attar, many works by Rumi, eg the Masnavi, and Firdausi). Have also studfied Zen Buddhism, reading Daisetz T.Suzuki, Hubert Benoit and others. And then there is the Christian mystics, Jacob Boeme and others, including reading the 'Cloud of Unknowing'.That is all just from memory. This was all over 40 years ago, and I know there were many more.In my library at the moment are 'Why not Creation?', 'Scientific Creationism', 'The Creationists', 'Science and Earth History', 'Creationism, Science and the Law', 'Monday School', 'Telling Lies for God', 'Science and Creationism'. Have read them all! I have dozens of books on physics, astronomy, cosmology, evolution, relativity, geology.Does that lot qualify me to form an opinion? If not, please send me a reading list. NB. I have also had some 'mystical' experiences, astral wandering and such, but they did not convince me of anything!Mike.

Slow down, Cygnusx, you are mixing up your facts. Dinos died out 65 MILLION years ago, not 65 BILLION. Slight difference. Also, Carbon dating only works to about 60,000 years ago at the most. So no-one would dream of using it on dino bones. Not even on Homo Erectus! There are many other ways to date dino bomes.
Mike.

Right! So lets have a little more respect, sonny.
Grandpa Mike.

Now to get back to the topic.
The issue here is not science and/or religion, or belief and non-belief.
It is in you yourself. You need to decide why you believe anything. What do you accept as a good reason for accepting anything? What are you philosophically obliged to believe from your experience of the world, and how do you progress from there?
You don't need to go all the way back to 'I think, therefore I am'. But you need to work out why you accept any fact or theory.
OK. Its a long haul. Once I decided Scientology, mysticism, etc were crap, it took me several years of studying philosophy and science to sort out my thinking. There are still big gaps where I just have no answers, such as 'why should a universe exist', or 'what is consciousness'.
Maybe you can find an easier path to a view of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything' that satisfies you. But don't close your mind.
Mike.[This message has been edited by Mike Holland, 12-07-2003]

Hi, Born2preach, it was Plato that said we are trapped in a cave, only seeing the shadows of the real world passing outside. He believed in the reality of abstract ideas as existing things, like Beauty, Truth, etc. I personally don't like Idealism.
I also start off with our senses, but with a grain of salt. A stick appears bent when inserted in water, but is not 'really' bent. Some experimentation is often required to 'correct' the error or delusion of our senses. The important thing is that the resulting theory must be consistent with our sense experience, and be testable.
Regarding consciousness, I have two problems. Firstly, light enters my eye and interacts with the retina to produce electrical pulses which are passed to my brain. Where does the resulting image of a flower exist?
Secondly, I have a feeling of unity in my consciousness - I take in a whole symphony, or a whole scene. I do not understand how a brain cell, or group of cells, can have this experience.
I have a gut feeling that this topic is not going to get anywhere.
Mike.