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Junior Member (Idle past 3497 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
No...quite honestly I just make stuff up. To me, it makes more sense for God to have created the possibility of evil...actualized by the choice of Lucifer itself. in essence, Jesus...having been around since Day One....existed even before either Lucifer or satan. Thus quite possibly Jesus was Gods foreknown response to the actuality of evil.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Nobody is ever forced to breathe poison. We are warned...by common sense...to stay clear of it. There is oxygen enough for everybody.
It is definitely "unfair" - some might say downright evil - for somebody to deliberately make poison gases and substitute them for our oxygen.It isn't as if Hell just happened to be there and we could choose to jump in or not. God created it and He threatens to throw us in if He doesn't feel graceful.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
and that is human fault---not Gods.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them. Are we getting back to the old "blame God for evil" game? sheesh! Perhaps God foreknew that if evil were completely eliminated we would be forced robots. The very idea of evil, according to some, is the dark side of free will.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
To use yet another yet another yet another analogy, if you dig a hole in your front yard it most definitely is your fault if the mailman falls in. So what if the mailman was entitled to "fall into" something else besides you? What if depriving him of that hole meant that he was eternally predestined to deliver mail to you and only you? *oh nevermind, i give up* Why is freewill basically a joke? Look at it like a movie script. Within the script, characters say the lines they are assigned. Imagine, however, if the director allowed them to ad lib. Would the movie still be the whim of the director?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
so in other words, you dont feel as if you actually have free will i take it....
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: According to some dogma, Gods plan was to allow humanity to choose...which brought separation and death. Critics(you among them) would argue that were God loving and responsible He would have never allowed the sneaky snake to tempt newly created innocent creatures. It may be foolhardy to ignore him but the point here is that they're his pets. He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them. Quite frankly that makes sense. The issue is what exactly has happened to humanity. Has humanity lost the ability to be good? You say that you would prefer that God(if God exists) or Jesus to simply leave you alone and let you freely choose to be responsible, giving spare change to every down-on-their-luck Canadian in your town whom you come upon. Thus, you seem to assume that there is no Original Sin...like jar, you believe that the gift given to humanity was no curse...it was an awareness and charge to be responsible---helping others whenever and however possible. If what you believe is true, perhaps you additionally believe that Jesus need not shepherd you through life...you can find your own way, thank you very much. jar is similar. I guess some of us feel that we have been given the ability to freely choose to believe in ourselves---and that, at our best---we create our own grace. We need no gifts with conditions attached. Am I close?
ringo writes: In other words, we save ourselves(or redeem ourselves) entirely through our own actions? Why not just add good to the other side? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
when Jesus saves us, we dont get the credit nor the power...so we hate it.
When the force frees you, you get the power...thus you like it. Plus the force never demands obedience...only respect. Conclusion: People would like Jesus better if He gave them the power.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
well, at least this "once evil" character has the humility to reflect on her bad choices in the past....what is she on the good side now?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And you good sir are reppin the good side quite respectfully. (For those here who don't know Raphael as I do, he was a camp counselor over the summer and hopefully inspired a few young minds to contemplate their destiny and help humanity somewhat. ) Any advice for we secular intellectuals? Im sure that you have grown a bit and seen the college intelligentsia at work!
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Diomedes writes: I always figured "The Force" to be somewhat Yin/Yang Dualism.
What is interesting, from a Star Wars canon standpoint, is that interpretations of the light side and dark side differ. Some consider both to be two separate energy sources, with distinct properties. Others consider there to be one ubiquitous 'Force' and how one manifests their power ultimately denotes whether they are 'touched' by the light or dark side.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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ringo writes: Just because we are aware of what good and bad mean and that we are conscious of it does not mean that we sheep know what we are doing...because if you observe this world and read the news you will see sheep behaving very badly. Oh sure there are good sheep...but I'd say that the Shepherds purpose is better than anything that we can come up with on our own. Its the church that has driven people away from Jesus.. sheep who would be shepherds. The issue is what causes us to be good. You say it's dogmatic obedience. Paul and I say it's conscience. Conscience is what we gained with the so-called "Fall". Edited by Phat, : spelling bee
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It cheapens the message that you prefer. I swear you must have had a Jewish Mother.
You have this idea that you are responsible for everything. The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...much as you would if you were at a fish fry and they ran out of fish. Humans do not have the ability to fix everything ourselves. And if you admit that Jesus helping us turns it into a whats-in-it-for-me game, you are essentially admitting and exposing human nature for the imperfect fraud that it is. Which is, of course my point.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I say that folk that believe Jesus will fix anything at all are simply trying to justify their own failure to even try to fix anything and that it is a really sad and pitiful position that can only lead to things not getting fixed. Not necessarily. I try and do my best and fail often. I ask for forgiveness and the strength and wisdom to move on. I am not so vain as to believe that "only humans will ever do anything". (Naive too) Seems you never believed in the Spirit because you were too busy asking "what the hell that mean't"...too trapped in your own logic and reason to consider the Spirit to be part of reality. Nicene Creed: "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. " It is never cheap to ask for help nor to accept it. You have too much of that Eastern Prep School machismo do-it-yourself attitude.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus became human to demonstrate that it is possible for humans to do it themselves. It may have been true that He preached this message to His own Jewish Disciples. They had no empowerment nor grace...for He had not yet died and risen. He even predicted that Peter would fail.
Even if we do it imperfectly, so did He. Where did He do it imperfectly? The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God. You see only a human. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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