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Junior Member (Idle past 3497 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes we are:
Are we getting back to the old "blame God for evil" game?quote:He admits it. Phat writes:
"Free will" is pretty much a nonsense concept.
The very idea of evil, according to some, is the dark side of free will.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The director in this case is also the editor. He can cut out any ad libs that he doesn't approve of. The actors have the "freedom" to say what they want but it has no effect on the outcome. Look at it like a movie script. Within the script, characters say the lines they are assigned. Imagine, however, if the director allowed them to ad lib. Would the movie still be the whim of the director? On a side note, the director is also the script writer. If the actor did come up with a brilliant line that isn't in the script, the script writer isn't omniscient.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If you've read my posts you ought to know that I do advocate obeying Jesus - not because of who he is/was but because it's the right thing to do.
Do you have any objections to obeying Jesus...as well as getting to know Him? Phat writes:
What would I say to Him? Nothing. If He exists, He already knows what I think. if God gave you a chance to voice your objections to the way men wrote about and perceived Him...what would you say...? What would I say to Christians? Read my posts.
Phat writes:
I think I've mentioned before, I'd like Him to leave me alone. I can do without the "joy" that Christians exhibit here. I'd also like to do without Hell. If I had to choose between the two, it would be a toss up. Additionally how would you want Him to be? Do I have the free will to choose between two bad options? Thanks.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Why not just add good to the other side?
The only way to get it back into balance is to remove the shit from the scale.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
You'd have to hold on with one hand and shovel with the other.
ringo writes: Why not just add good to the other side? Because you'll probably fall to the Dark Side.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course not. The issue is what causes us to be good. You say it's dogmatic obedience. Paul and I say it's conscience. Conscience is what we gained with the so-called "Fall".
Has humanity lost the ability to be good? Phat writes:
A shepherd doesn't lead every sheep. The sheep follow each other in the direction the shepherd is going. If what you believe is true, perhaps you additionally believe that Jesus need not shepherd you through life...you can find your own way, thank you very much. And don't forget that there were sheep before there were shepherds. The sheep can get along without the shepherd. He only leads them for his own purposes.
Phat writes:
That's what Jesus said.
In other words, we save ourselves(or redeem ourselves) entirely through our own actions?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The shepherd's purpose is to shear you and eat your children.
...but I'd say that the Shepherds purpose is better than anything that we can come up with on our own. Phat writes:
Those are goats.
... if you observe this world and read the news you will see sheep behaving very badly.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus became human to demonstrate that it is possible for humans to do it themselves. Even if we do it imperfectly, so did He.
The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It may have been true that He preached this message to His own Jewish Disciples. They had no empowerment nor grace...for He had not yet died and risen.quote: We have been empowered right from the start.
Phat writes:
I believe He did it imperfectly because the Bible says so.
The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're contradicting God. He told Cain that if we do well we will be accepted. He didn't say He was setting us up to fail.
Yes, we should try and do our best. But we will fail.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You answered your own question:
are you assuming that God talks the same way today as He did with Cain?quote:The principle that we can resist evil hasn't changed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
One day at a time.
And how do we resist it? quote:It probably isn't significant but I like the way the Revelation is narrated in the past tense. The "prophet" doesn't talk about something that will happen in the future; he talks about something he saw happening. You seem to be another foolish virgin who's so anxious to see Jesus coming that you don't notice He's already here.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Raphael writes:
Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure.
- Was Jesus a real historical figure?- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You could say the same about John Dillinger or Charles Manson and it would be equally meaningless.
They did not take His life. He gave it. Phat writes:
Atonement is a really stupid concept.
Others believe that He was sent to die...becoming a once and forever atonement of humanities shortcomings.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The ones who don't incur points aren't really benefiting from the amnesty. What I have observed is that the responsible ones keep being responsible while the slackers continue to incur points against their record. The responsible ones never expect timeclock amnesty...yet they benefit from it as do the slackers. Nobody refuses to accept it. A better analogy would be if anybody who didn't accept the amnesty got fired. Of course, firing the responsible workers along with the irresponsible workers would be irresponsible on the part of management.
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