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Author | Topic: Morality without god | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Which is a code you got thanks to the Christians who worked to end slavery. And not a code that they, or anyone else, got from the Bible.
The explanation I've been supporting here is that He had the wisdom not to burden the people with a change in their habits that He knew they could not keep. Then perhaps he could have chosen a point at which no change was required. For example, unless I'm reading the Bible completely backwards, the Jews were slaves in Egypt, rather than slave-owners. "The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God" (Exodus 2:23). When they left Egypt, God might have said: "Slavery is bad, as you all know from personal experience. I am pleased to see that none of you owns any slaves. Keep it that way."
The explanation I've been supporting here is that He had the wisdom not to burden the people with a change in their habits that He knew they could not keep. Is this the same God who will damn people to hell-fire for the original sin that they can't avoid being born with?
When people would not have given it up for anything. Not even Abraham for God?
God's wisdom in dealing with human frailty is certainly not appreciated by the humanly frail these days. It is one thing for God to abstain from enforcing his opinions, it's a whole 'nother thing for him to conceal them. It is because humans are frail that a little divine guidance wouldn't go amiss. Folks in the antebellum South, for example, could have used it, not despite being human and frail, but precisely because they were. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It doesn't, I was just nitpicking your criticism. You said they'd need the book on the boat, but really they'd have needed it before then. I let that challenge go because I wanted to point out that it didn't matter. But in fact many of the Africans sold by other Africans were not in fact slaves, but POWs, kidnap victims, and other captives. I don't think it's possible to make the case that their purchasers weren't involved in their enslavement.
That is, if someone frees some slaves then they're not really going to be "free". That don't make much sense to me, but I was never that good with profundity. It does not make sense. In fact it is stupid or worse.
Well if you enslave them then they're not free, what it seems to be saying is the one's who refuse to not be free will end up choosing to be killed. That is, the people who allowed themselves to be enslaved weren't willing to die for their freedom, and, I suppose, they weren't really "free". You cannot actually gain any freedom by dying.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I came to answer a particular post, and the topic of that post has continued so I continue while it continues. It was quite clear already. Why are you making excuses for posting here? We all know that even when you don't post that you are lurking here and dropping red bread crumbs to mark your passage. In fact how would you even know about the post if you weren't here?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I guess you don't bother to read the context or you'd know I was answering a question, just one of the many snarky insinuating questions that get thrown at me. Not that you care of course since you'd prefer just to add your snark to the rest of it.
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Just being real Member (Idle past 3966 days) Posts: 369 Joined: |
Hmmm.
"Your" supposed NLT version: Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. "My" NLT version: When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, you may hear that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’gods you have not known before. The fact that you cant quote correctly sends up red flags to start with. But beyond that lets look at a similar passage: Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution, any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given. During war time this is a crime that is punishable up to the death penalty. So if I were of a mind to totally twist and spin this in the way you did the passage in the Bible, I could say:
"If you find someone who helps or comforts someone else who doesn't like the USA very much, by giving them a ride or warm place to sleep... then you should kill that treasonor." You see how easy it is to take something out of context and give it a shameful appearance. However if you leave the context of the passage where it belongs (The Jews struggling to become a nation of God's people) and come to it with the understanding that any act of treason by worshiping false gods could lead to the destruction of the Jews because God is no longer their protection... then it makes more sense. You probably wouldn't normally want to bind and gag someone just for carving holes in wood. But put yourself into the context of being with other survivors of a ship wreck, lost at sea in a life boat, with an unruly passenger on board who keeps trying to carve holes in the bottom of the boat, and now you damn straight are gonna do what ever it takes to keep you and the rest of the passengers alive. The point is context is everything.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Which is a code you got thanks to the Christians who worked to end slavery.
And not a code that they, or anyone else, got from the Bible. According to them they did. Love your neighbor as yourself would be sufficient, or Paul's gentle suggestion to Philemon that he set his slave Onesimus free.
The explanation I've been supporting here is that He had the wisdom not to burden the people with a change in their habits that He knew they could not keep.
Then perhaps he could have chosen a point at which no change was required. For example, unless I'm reading the Bible completely backwards, the Jews were slaves in Egypt, rather than slave-owners. "The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God" (Exodus 2:23). When they left Egypt, God might have said: "Slavery is bad, as you all know from personal experience. I am pleased to see that none of you owns any slaves. Keep it that way." Perhaps you could suggest that to Him when your time comes.
The explanation I've been supporting here is that He had the wisdom not to burden the people with a change in their habits that He knew they could not keep.
Is this the same God who will damn people to hell-fire for the original sin that they can't avoid being born with? There is no such thing as a person who ONLY has original sin and not sins of his own on top of it but of course that's an academic point. Yes, one and the same God. Who also provided a way out of the damnation to anyone who isn't too proud or stubborn to receive it as prescribed. Most of us believe that infants who die are received to God's presence on the basis of Christ's sacrifice, at least the infant children of believers.
When people would not have given it up for anything.
Not even Abraham for God? Didn't I already guess that Abraham would have obeyed? But "people" means people in general, there are always exceptions.
God's wisdom in dealing with human frailty is certainly not appreciated by the humanly frail these days.
It is one thing for God to abstain from enforcing his opinions, it's a whole 'nother thing for him to conceal them. It is because humans are frail that a little divine guidance wouldn't go amiss. Folks in the antebellum South, for example, could have used it, not despite being human and frail, but precisely because they were. Again I suggest you bring that up with Him when you see Him.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II. 2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3719 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Faith ur logic seems really really weird to me, how is death of BILLIONS ok but laying down rules is "pushing people beyond their tolerance" - that's insane!
Damn near everything is preferable to death! Seriously on what sort of scale is any rule you ever make EVER going to be worse than driving humanity to the brink of extinction! That's really dumb On an aside what could the world possibly have done to deserve it? I'm an art therapist as such I've broken bread with murders, drug dealers and rapists - I would not wish death upon a single one of them, not many can be rehabilitated if I'm being totally honest but there isn't one I'd give up on. Where there is life there is hope. And what of the children, infants and unborn of the preflood world? Presumably they were slaughtered too. Is there any way to justify that that isn't totally totally immoral! Thegod of the bible is a blood thirsty monster, if it was proven to me that the biblical account was accurate I'd refuse to worship such a villianous beast
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As I did with Dr. Adequate I would suggest that you bring that complaint before God when you see Him.
But God never does anything without giving ample warning. Noah preached to the people that God's judgment was coming, preached at least for the hundred years it took him to build the ark, preached repent and be saved, and obviously he was ignored. A hundred years of warning ought to be sufficient don't you think? They could have chosen to be saved on the ark but they didn't. Apparently the pre-Flood world was wicked beyond our ability to appreciate. And since evil begets evil it is for the sake of the righteous that God does away with evil people. But again, not without AMPLE warning. Interesting that you are so concerned about all the wicked God punishes, and have a soft spot for criminals you yourself know, but apparently no concern or soft spot for their victims. Interesting. But I have faith that God's judgments are always righteous. You of course may ignore Him just as the antediluvian people did. You'll have plenty of company. {I have another suggestion, for anyone who isn't just stubbornly insisting he's right and God is wrong, who may not exist here but anyway: We all have questions about God's doings, some of them are truly shocking to us, and there's nothing wrong with having such questions. A sincere desire to learn from Him He would not turn away, but simply condemning Him on the basis of your own narrow ability to judge such things is a disastrous attitude to take. Yes you'll have plenty of company. But again, anyone who is willing to be wrong about such reactions to what God's word reveals can be sure He would answer your prayers to understand better. That's a far better stance to take than to wait until Judgment Day when it will be too late. He who has an ear to hear let him hear.} Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Just being real Member (Idle past 3966 days) Posts: 369 Joined: |
quote: The same can be said for any large organization. Boy Scouts don't all agree on how to start a campfire. Most organizations have basic tenants that the majority do agree with. But I don't care what group your talking about your always gonna find that one in the crowd that doesn't. All true Christians agree that the Bible is the word of God and though there might be some minor variances in interpretation, they all agree on the main and plain things.
quote: You never cease to prove that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about doc. Actually the despicable one's you mention are evidence that the scriptures are true rather than hinder them. It was prophesied by Christ Himself that many would come in His name claiming He is the Christ, but would deceive many. And Jesus wasn't known to exaggerate. When He said "many" He meant MANY. In this, my faith is always bolstered by those who claim to be Christians but are found to be corrupt.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes:
But God never does anything without giving ample warning. Noah preached to the people that God's judgment was coming, preached at least for the hundred years it took him to build the ark, preached repent and be saved, and obviously he was ignored. A hundred years of warning ought to be sufficient don't you think? They could have chosen to be saved on the ark but they didn't. Don't you think that your God could have found a more peruasive way of convincing people than to get the weird guy up the hill who's building an enormous boat in a desert to give the message? (How do you think he told the people not in his immediate vicinity, Facebook?) Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Word of mouth.
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3719 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Delighted to see someone mention this - as an Irish man I'd rather not personally use such a point in a cheesy online debate but it is very valid and is a huge national
Shame that we are all quite acutely aware of. If it's any consolidation it's left Ireland very nearly an atheist nation which will serve us well in the next few generations (again in the light of the recent X case a lot of us can't wait to get rid of Christianity from our lovely little country entirely)
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Just being real Member (Idle past 3966 days) Posts: 369 Joined: |
quote: I'll make you a deal here. We'll look at these in their context and see if they really mean what you imply. So you pick one (any one you think to be the worst) and we can examine it together. Truth of the matter is you can make anything look bad if you pull it out of context and give it enough spin.
"as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." -2 Peter 3:16
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
How sad that you think the Roman Church has anything to do with Christianity. As the Reformers knew the Roman papacy is Antichrist. Ireland was a powerful evangelical missionary-sending nation before Rome got its fangs into you. Patrick had been the missionary to Ireland and NOT from a Roman church but from a primitive Celtic church that had been founded earlier, and he passed on his true Christianity to the Irish, who were strong true Christians for some time afterward. Then Rome came and conquered the island, turned the image of poor Patrick into a "bishop" wearing that ridiculous pointy hat and wrecked the Irish. If you give up on Romanism great but don't kid yourself that you're giving up on Christianity by doing so.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3719 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
I wrote a very bitter and personally grieved reply to ur comment, but I've deleted it - this isn't a place to get personal - but u have no idea of the real world it appears
Back to the flood! Even if I accept ur premise that the world was wicked how could a pro-life like god justify the death of children????Imposing punishment upon someones child for their crime is beyond immoral. Are u a father Faith? I am. It would not be right, just or moral for someone to harm my child if they were displeased with me
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