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Author | Topic: Morality without god | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Thousands Enslaved by Ireland's Catholic Church
Wait for it...wait...Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Eli Member (Idle past 3522 days) Posts: 274 Joined:
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The truth is sometimes kind. In this case, it is not. Whether you try to shrug it off or ignore it, it still remains the truth.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Damn teh mackerel snappers!! The Protestant forefathers would only stand for it if it were from divine inspiration.
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I should have questioned Coragyps' example. Apparently he's referring to a decision made not by God but by the Israelites themselves which commentators judge as wrong, but he presented it as God's will.
Retch away Coragyps, you have no idea what you are talking about.
David Guzik Commentary on Judges 21
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I assume you are waiting for me to affirm what I already said, that we are not discussing criminal kidnapping but culturally sanctioned slavery, and that the Roman Church is a criminal organization.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I think what he was waiting for was the "The Roman Catholic Church is not a true Crhsitan church, though some Catholics are likely true Christians themselves. Rome is demonically inspired."
Otherwise known as the No True Scotsman. I think what you provided was close enough to give Theodoric the point.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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For me, it is really a simple concept. We judge for ourselves whether or not the actions or commands of a deity are moral. We are moral agents. It is obvious to me that morality exists independently of any deity or claim of divinity. Or as Euthyphro considered it, the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Absolutely, give him the point.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3
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But by no stretch did the slavery in question include the criminal underground in human trafficking for crying out loud. I wonder if anyone else noticed that the one part of that post that you replied to is the one that is least relevant to discussing the topic. I wrote, at length, an argument supporting moral capability without a god, and you outright ignored it. Did you actually want to discuss "morality without god," Faith?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I answered the part that was the topic of the moment.
As for your claim to be more moral than God, humanity was made in God's image and still retains some right moral standards. Some of your moral standards are obviously in tune with the Ten Commandments although you hate them, and those that aren't He will judge in the end. And no, I joined this thread to answer a specific post and I'm not interested in the rest of the discussion.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
As for your claim to be more moral than God, humanity was made in God's image and still retains some right moral standards. Some of your moral standards are obviously in tune with the Ten Commandments although you hate them, and those that aren't He will judge in the end. Indeed I do believe that I'm more moral in both principle and action than the Biblical god. Of course, Hitler was more moral in action. After all, he only caused the deaths of a portion of humanity. the Biblical god did worse. So, you know, that's a pretty low bar to exceed.
quote: I agree...and I think it's applicable to your god, as well. He should be judged not on the basis of how well he might treat his favored, but on how poorly he will treat those he does not favor. Floods, plagues, and Hells - murder and death and torture for all eternity are the basis for his judgement. I think, if we are to find anyone morally lacking, it should be the one who suggests the usage of such horrific crimes as "right" or "deserved." Else, by comparison, all of humanity are angels. (The irony of that last statement is not lost on me) ABE
And no, I joined this thread to answer a specific post and I'm not interested in the rest of the discussion. So...why are you here, if not to discuss the topic? Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Already answered you Rahvin, I came to answer a particular post, and the topic of that post has continued so I continue while it continues. It was quite clear already.
Cheers.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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But it was Christians who protested it, REAL Christians, for Christian reasons ... But they were awfully short of Christian reasons, weren't they? As one pro-slavery writer put it:
If, then, the Almighty had undertaken to enlighten the human race by degrees, with respect to the great sin of slavery, is it not wonderful that, in the very last revelation of his will, he has uttered not a single syllable in disapprobation thereof? Is it not wonderful, that he should have completed the revelation of his will, that he should have set his seal to the last word he will ever say to man respecting his duties, and yet not one word about the great obligation of the master to emancipate his slaves, nor about the ''appalling sin'' of slavery? Such silence must, indeed, appear exceedingly peculiar and anomalous to the abolitionist. It would have been otherwise had he written the New Testament. He would, no doubt, have inserted at least one little precept against the sin of slavery. - Arthur Taylor Bledsoe The man has a point. Why was there not that "one little precept" somewhere in the Bible that Christian abolitionists could point to? Here's another apologist for slavery:
Even though during the times of the apostles, under the Roman Empire, slavery was closely tied to the injustice of raiding by the envious and everlasting thirst for conquest of the Romans (often with the worst types of tyranny, where the masters had the right over life or death of the slaves, a right which was not withdrawn until Antonin), we never read that the apostles themselves denounced slavery as a sin against the law of ''love thy neighbor" ... Had the Holy Spirit enlightened them that slavery is an immoral practice which is irreconcilable with the spirit of the Gospel, they would have boldly spoken out against it. They would have demanded its abolishment from all those wanting to be saved, without compromise, just as they have fought any other ungodly ways of the pagan and Jewish world. They would have demanded that they desist, or else lose salvation. They were under the command: ''What I say to you in the dark, you must repeat in broad daylight; what you hear whispered, you must shout from the housetops'' (Matth. 10:27). - C.F.W. Walther You can see from these quotations that God's complete failure to speak out against slavery was a common talking-point amongst those who defended it. Could he not at least have said somewhere that it was preferable not to own slaves? If not "one little precept", then at least one little hint? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
and that the Roman Church is a criminal organization.
There it is. You got those goalposts where you want them? Of course not you will just maneuver them around again when it suits your needs.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
we are not discussing criminal kidnapping but culturally sanctioned slavery Euphemisms are great aren't they? - Oni
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