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Author | Topic: The one and only non-creationist in this forum. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I believe the lower in the gravity well the clock is, the slower the oscillations will be How would that work, ICANT. What is the mechanism for changing the clock frequency? Keep in mind that I am going to ask how your mechanism would affect non-atomic clocks in the same way.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If you have never read a book that describes gravitational time dilation, then perhaps you should read a bit more prior to criticizing the theory.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What kind of object is time that gravity can have an effect on it Actually, I mispoke and used some Newtonian when I should have described things in relativity terms. Gravity does not warp space time. Warped space-time is the basis for the effects we call gravity. But as for your Alfred style question, what type of object is my disposition that it can be affected by silly questions such as the one this is a response to? Is the wind an object? Is a light ray an object? How can a light ray be bent?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi No,
NoNukes writes: You have made a math error. The 7000ns/day due to relative motion is in the opposite direction from the 45000 ns/day caused by gravitational time delay. I don't see where I made a mistake. GR predicts that the atomic clocks at GPS orbital altitudes will tick faster by about 45,900 ns/day because they are in a weaker gravitational field than atomic clocks on Earth's surface. SR predicts that atomic clocks moving at GPS orbital speeds will tick slower by about 7,200 ns/day than stationary ground clocks. 1. Clock in satellite counts 45,900 ns/day more that clock on Earth's surface. 2. Clock in satellite counts 7,200 ns/day less than clock on Earth's surface. 3. That means the clock in the satellite counts 38,700 ns/day more than the clock on Earth's surface. So please point out my error. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi No,
NoNukes writes: How would that work, ICANT. What is the mechanism for changing the clock frequency? Keep in mind that I am going to ask how your mechanism would affect non-atomic clocks in the same way. GR predicts that clocks in a stronger gravitational field will tick at a slower rate. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi No,
NoNukes writes: If you have never read a book that describes gravitational time dilation, then perhaps you should read a bit more prior to criticizing the theory. I have Relativity: The Special and General Theory, 1920 as well as a few others by Einstein. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi No,
NoNukes writes: Warped space-time is the basis for the effects we call gravity. I thought gravity still remained a mystery.
NoNukes writes: Is the wind an object? Is a light ray an object? How can a light ray be bent? Wind is moving air which is made up of nitrogen 78% and oxygen about 21% and several other molecules as well. A light ray is energy. I am not convinced it can be bent as it travels in a straight line at c. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
It's very important that you word things properly, as this is leading to your confusion.
Yes, according to Special Relativity the clock on the satellite will run 7,200 ns/day slower than the clock at the Earth's surface due to its motion. No, it does not run slower. Relative to the clock on the gorund it is running slower. The clock on the satellite and the one on the ground read the same time. But, to the observer on the ground the clock in the satellite is running slower. These adjustments are made and that is why you get an accurate read out on your GPS. That's one fact not related to your other point about the gravitational field.
But General Relativity says the clock on the satellite will run 45,900 ns/day faster than the clock at the Earth's surface due to being in a weaker gravatational field. I don't know where you're getting this but the wording is a bit confusing. It's better explain here ---> Sourcequote: And to correct for this:
quote: - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I thought gravity still remained a mystery. Not at all. Well, not a "mystery" like your leading on. Before Einstein it was believed that gravity was a "force" that pulled objects. Newtonian physics worked under that idea and it's the basis for Newton's equations - which, theequations still work fine locally. Einstein changed that idea by suggesting that it was not a force, but instead, what Newton called the "force of gravity" was actually curved spacetime. What that means is, when an object is falling toward Earth, it wasn't being pulled by the Earth's gravitational force, but instead the object was following the curvature of spacetime. It was proven that spacetime curved in the famous Gravitational Lensing experiment. Also, of course in Einsteins's filed equations, proven to work whenever we launch anything toward a specific location in space. The curvature of spacetime is accounted for. (A fun fact to point out is, SR shows us that motion is relative. So, to the object the Earth is moving to it, and to the observer on Earth the object is moving toward the Earth. Whose to say who is right? Point being though, since motion is relative, they're both right. )
I am not convinced it can be bent as it travels in a straight line at c. No one is suggesting light can be bent. And you are correct to say that light "travels" in a striaght line, but, it also follows the curvature of spacetime when it passes a massive object. Again, this is evidenced in Einstein,s gravitational lensing experiment. So when observing the light it will appear bent as it is following the curvature of spacetime. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
ICANT writes:
Yes, to a negligible degree.
So gravity does effect the oscillations of atoms. Then why was General Relativity used to figure out that the atomic clock on the GPS satellite would produce 45,900 ns/day more than an atomic clock on the Earth's surface?
General Relativity predicts the discrepancy between the clocks and states that the disagreement between the clocks is due to the warping/curvature of spacetime. General Relativity does not say the discrepancy is a result of the effects of gravity on the atoms of the clock.
I can't find where the makers of the clocks say anythiing about the distortations of time being used in the caculations.
That's very odd because every GPS manufacturer is aware of this effect. How much have you looked? See the talk by Kyle O'Keefe "Relativity and GPS". He mentions the curvature of spacetime on several slides. O'Keefe works on GPS systems.
I find where it is said General Relativity predicts that clocks in a stronger gravitational field will tick at a slower rate.
I don't know how you could read anything on General Relativity and not encounter the distortion of time. This would like reading about evolution and not encountering the idea of natural selection. I don't find where this is cause by a distortion of time. General Relativity has as its primary idea that spacetime can be distorted or bent. That's the centre of General Relativity. Everything predicted by the theory is a consequence of that idea.
Then time is not a dimension of the universe.
You have already told NoNukes that you accept that Special Relativity makes correct predictions. In Special (and General) Relativity, time is a dimension. In the case of special relativity all predictions of the the theory follow from the idea that time is a dimension. You have somehow done a lot of reading on both theories and never seen these foundational ideas, I find that hard to believe.
Actually according to the math the clock on the satellite is 38,700 ns per day faster than a clock on the Earth's surface. Unless we change the definition of a day.
Are you even reading what we write?I was explaining two separate effects, one of which, the one you quoted, causes the satellite clock to run slower. However since it is not the only effect, the satellite clock runs faster overall. Are you saying the decrease by 7,200 ns/day motion predicted by Special Relativity is time being shrunk?
No. The relative velocity time discrepancy between the clocks is caused by the effect I explained in the post. Objects moving at the speed of the satellite divide the four dimensions of spacetime up into three dimensions of space and one of time differently to how objects on the Earth would. Special Relativity itself says this.
Are you saying the increased of 45,700 ns/day predicted by General Relativity is the streaching of time.
Yes. The form of discrepancy between the clocks that is called gravitational time dilation is said by General Relativity to be caused by the distortion/stretching of time. General Relativity predicts the discrepancy using the idea that time is stretched.
So how do you streach time if it is not an object?
According to the Theory of Relativity time is a physically real extra dimension. Somehow you have read a lot about relativity and missed this core fact of the entire framework. If it is an object, what is it? Time is a method mankind has devised to measure duration between events in existence. Since relativity predicts the motions of cosmological entities to very high precision, it would appear that the idea that time is a physically real extra dimension is correct, despite how unintuitive it seems to you.
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
ICANT writes:
From that book: I have Relativity: The Special and General Theory, 1920 as well as a few others by Einstein. And yet there is no more common-place statement than that the world in which we live is a four-dimensional space-time continuum. Similarly, the world of physical phenomena which was briefly called " world " by Minkowski is naturally four dimensional in the space-time sense. The four-dimensional mode of consideration of the "world" is natural on the theory of relativity Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I don't see where I made a math mistake I was trying to be kind. You got that number of 53000 ns/day by adding when when subtraction was the proper operation. You then attributed that error to me. But I neither did the addition nor implied that the two should be added. I suppose that strictly speaking, I should not have called that a math error, and should instead have accused you of lying. But I want to avoid that kind of stuff. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
GR predicts... I asked you for the mechanism and not the label. If your answer is simply that GR is correct, we can switch to merely describing GR from here on in. But I don't think that to be your position. General relativity describes the method by which the satellite clock runs as observed from the ground requires a 38,700 ns/day correction. You have said that you do not accept time dilation. So what is the mechanism by which clocks at the bottom of a gravity well run more slowly if it is not time dilation.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I am not convinced it can be bent as it travels in a straight line Does light travel in a straight line as it passes from one substance such as water to another such as air? Do prisms, mirrors, and lenses bend light rays? I presume from your answer that you understand that energy is not an object, but that saying so explicitly would lose the argument. We can make meaningful physical statements about changes in non objects. You'll need to find another argument if you expect to do more than maintain your own self delusion. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I have Relativity: The Special and General Theory, 1920 as well as a few others by Einstein. We all have that book, in a sense, because it is freely available on the internet. But I note that you do not say that you have read it, just that you have it. Your claim, as I understand it, is that you have never read of gravity being associated with curved space-time. Let's test that claim. What do you make of chapter 27 in which Einstein describes the space-time continuum as being non-Euclidean? It may be helpful to read chapter 26 first. Here is an excerpt which is relevant to the discussion.
quote: What does non-Euclidean mean to you?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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