Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The one and only non-creationist in this forum.
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 406 of 558 (681420)
11-25-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Panda
11-24-2012 10:36 PM


Re: Sophistry as a debating strategy.
Hi Panda,
Panda writes:
Are you unable to answer my question?
Why should I answer your diversion question when you have not addressed anything I have written?
Panda writes:
Or do you realise that it invalidates your claims regarding time?
No.
You have had 3 days to invalidate my claims. If you were able to do so you would have done so already.
Now to your question.
Panda writes:
Using the coordinates 0,0,0 an object is passing through that coordinate from the North and another object is passing through that coordinate from the South, will they collide?
As written no answer can be given. Things I would need to answer the question is as follows.
At what coordinates is the object that is coming from the N located at the time I am to begin my caculations and at what distance from 0,0,0.
I would need the velocity of said object.
At what coordinates is the object that is coming from the S located at the time I am to begin my caculations and at what distance from 0,0,0.
I would also need the velocity of said object.
Then since you believe that time is a dimension of the universe I would need you to be very specific in what numbers you would want me to use to quantify the distance traveled per unit of whatever you want to call it.
In other words I would need to know in feet per ???? the speed of the objects.
If they were traveling the same velocity and was the same distance from the coordinates they would collide as both would arrive at the coordinates simultaneously.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Panda, posted 11-24-2012 10:36 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Panda, posted 11-25-2012 5:54 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 558 (681423)
11-25-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by ICANT
11-25-2012 3:42 PM


Re: travel through time
ICANT writes:
I am not traveling through time. Time tells you the length of the duration between events in my life.
There is a duration between events in your life. What is that duration then?
I thought gravity was a property of mass, is that not the case?
Gravity is generated by mass.
Some folks clocks just run faster than other folks clocks. You can not speed the ratation of the earth up nor can you slow it down and that rotation relative to the sun is what seconds, minutes, hours, and days are based upon.
Why? Let's time things using something universal, such as the frequency of oscillation of Caesium atoms.
Somebody moving at a half the speed of light past a collection of muons measure half of them to decay when the Caesium atoms they were carrying with them had oscillated 23,246 times. (Experimental fact)
Somebody stationary next to the muons would measure a half of them to decay when their Caesium atoms have oscillated 20,132 times. (Experimental fact)
Why this difference in their time measurments?
Why is the ratio between the measurements 0.8660414695, the exact amount predicted by models where time is a dimension?
(As for your actual example of the Earth's rotation, observers moving at high speeds relative to Earth see the Earth rotating faster.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 3:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 5:08 PM Son Goku has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 408 of 558 (681434)
11-25-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Stile
11-25-2012 10:18 AM


Re: Why Time is a Dimension
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Are you saying that "God" is a physical object that exists at specific co-ordinates for everyone to see and touch?
God has a physical body very similar to yours.
God is omnipresent. Everywhere.
I see Him and talk to Him and He talks to me all the time.
You say why can't I see Him then? Because you are not looking for Him.
Stile writes:
First of all, all "well known forms" do not exist in a single location for all of time. That's exactly this exercise.
But I specified a specific year.
Stile writes:
The frame, for one.
Lets see, the frame is made of metal. Are you telling me that metal did not exist 300 years ago?
If the metal did not exist 300 years ago, who created the material that is now the metal in the frame of my car?
Stile writes:
No, you can't.
If you don't specify a time, then there is no guarantee that the object will be there when I look. If it's not there... then you're not specifying it's location. You're guessing, and getting it wrong.
Are you saying I could not give you the coordinates of my house without the dimension of time?
That is stupid.
My house exists at x,y,z coordinates.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Stile, posted 11-25-2012 10:18 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Son Goku, posted 11-25-2012 5:59 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 413 by onifre, posted 11-25-2012 7:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 418 by Son Goku, posted 11-26-2012 7:40 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 421 by Stile, posted 11-26-2012 10:48 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 409 of 558 (681438)
11-25-2012 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Son Goku
11-25-2012 4:24 PM


Re: travel through time
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes:
There is a duration between events in your life. What is that duration then?
Existence
Son Goku writes:
Why? Let's time things using something universal, such as the frequency of oscillation of Caesium atoms.
Why does leap seconds have to be added to the time kept by the atomic clocks?
Isn't it because they do not keep the same time as the time determined by the rotations of the earth relative to the sun in relation to distant quasars?
Son Goku writes:
Somebody moving at a half the speed of light past a collection of muons measure half of them to decay when the Caesium atoms they were carrying with them had oscillated 23,246 times. (Experimental fact)
What machine has someone built and traveled at half the speed of light in to produce your experimentsl fact?
Son Goku writes:
(As for your actual example of the Earth's rotation, observers moving at high speeds relative to Earth see the Earth rotating faster.)
What speeds are you talking about?
So does the earth speed up in relation to distant quasars?
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Son Goku, posted 11-25-2012 4:24 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Son Goku, posted 11-25-2012 5:51 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 416 by NoNukes, posted 11-25-2012 8:57 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 410 of 558 (681452)
11-25-2012 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by ICANT
11-25-2012 5:08 PM


Re: travel through time
ICANT writes:
Why does leap seconds have to be added to the time kept by the atomic clocks?
Isn't it because they do not keep the same time as the time determined by the rotations of the earth relative to the sun in relation to distant quasars?
Relationships between two standardisations of measurement are not really related to physics. How do you think this is an important point?
I'm not interested in how atomic clocks line up with the sidereal year, it's not an important point in relation to the nature of physical reality. No more than the relation between yards and meters.
ICANT writes:
What machine has someone built and traveled at half the speed of light in to produce your experimentsl fact?
For half the speed of light the travelling was not done by human beings. If you want trips done by human beings there is the experiments by Hafele and Keating in the 1970s used atomic oscillation measurements on flying planes. They recorded a difference in the number of oscillations on the two planes in exact accordance with those predicted by time being a dimension.
What speeds are you talking about?
So does the earth speed up in relation to distant quasars?
From the viewpoint of distant quasar, Earth's rotation is faster than from our point of view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 5:08 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 411 of 558 (681454)
11-25-2012 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ICANT
11-25-2012 4:20 PM


Re: Sophistry as a debating strategy.
ICANT writes:
I would need the velocity of said object.
I can't give you the velocity without involving the dimension of time.
And since you don't think time exists as a dimension, I am not sure how to answer your request.
Or do you have a definition of velocity that doesn't involve time?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 4:20 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 412 of 558 (681456)
11-25-2012 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ICANT
11-25-2012 4:49 PM


Re: Why Time is a Dimension
ICANT writes:
Are you saying I could not give you the coordinates of my house without the dimension of time?
That is stupid.
My house exists at x,y,z coordinates.
Yes, the spatial location of your house only requires the three spatial coordinates. However in describing objects in more general situations, such fluid flow, e.t.c. it is necessary to use a temporal label as well. This is basic physics, objects are at certain positions at certain times, you need to specify both.
At slow speeds and weak gravity you can get away with using time as if it were just a "number", not a physical thing that can distort.
However if gravity is strong this pretence becomes impossible to maintain.
One cannot explain the precession of the perihelion of mercury without the bending of time.
If time is not real then why does the perihelion of mercury precess as it does?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 4:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 413 of 558 (681472)
11-25-2012 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ICANT
11-25-2012 4:49 PM


Re: Why Time is a Dimension
I see Him and talk to Him and He talks to me all the time.
You seriously see an image of what you believe to be God and audibly hear this person talking to you? Like, for real you see and hear this?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 4:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 414 of 558 (681480)
11-25-2012 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by ICANT
11-25-2012 3:59 PM


Re: Sophistry as a debating strategy.
according to your logic you would not stop at your office
Once I get to work, do I stay there forever? Or asked another way is the coordinate 0,0,0 some kind of home or office for objects.
And why did you ask where I would be ten minutes after arrival? Where would I be four hours after arrival? Did you specify 10 minutes after arrival time because you sospect I won't head for Starbucks in that amount of time? What if my wife wants to know whether I'm at my own desk or not.
What you are engaging in is equivication. An object that is headed for a coordinate in space is not the same as a man headed for home. Home is a destination, but 0,0,0 is just another set of spatial coordinates. Where is the earth headed for now? Is it moving in a direction that leads to where it will be in 6 months? Will it stop when it gets there? Have I made my point yet?
And as I have already indicated, your example is one of an infinite number of scenarios. Generally we do need spatial coordinates, temporal coordinates, to predict the future location of objects.
Example my dog escapes from his leash and heads for home. If I call my wife ten minutes after the dog's arrival, is the dog at home? According to you, the dog must stay home because it was once headed there. But that directive does not apply to Inzo, who can and will elect to chase a cat across the street at any time.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 3:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3997 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 415 of 558 (681481)
11-25-2012 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Modulous
11-25-2012 8:54 AM


Re: travel through time
Dimension is a co-ordinate you specify a location of an object with. You cannot travel through any of the co-ordinates. Those co-ordinates are strictly relative to each other. You can have any of them at any relative angle relative to any of the planes. Thus you do not get any fixed for the whole of existence idiotic arrows of time or space on the map.
You need to start with the basics, Mod. You crypto-creo lot have such a lot of bigbangist nonsense to unlearn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2012 8:54 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2012 7:42 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 416 of 558 (681483)
11-25-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by ICANT
11-25-2012 5:08 PM


Re: travel through time
Why does leap seconds
We've answered this question before ICANT. Leap seconds have nothing at all to do with the rate of electric clocks.
Solar days are not uniform. The length of a solar day varies throughout the year, because the earth's orbit is eliptical. The longest solar day is nearly a full minute longer than the shortest. The average or mean solar day is about 86400.002 seconds. On the other hand 24 hours is exactly 86400 seconds. That small difference between a mean solar day and 24 hours accumulates to about 1 second every nine months. We could fix the problem without leap seconds, but doing so would require redefining the second. Nothing except consistency between scientific measurements already made prevents atomic clocks from being set so that a mean solar day is exactly 86400 seconds; at least for now.
Note that a mean solar day is an entirely mathematical construction. Every single day/night cycle during the year is different that both a mean solar day and 24 hours.
Of course the earth is also slowing down and eventually the solar day will increase above 86400 seconds. In other words, the earth does not keep perfect time. But time dilation has nothing to do with leap seconds.
But again, you've heard this before.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 5:08 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 417 of 558 (681508)
11-26-2012 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by ICANT
11-25-2012 3:42 PM


Re: travel through time
Time does not have duration either. It is the measure of duration.
Right. Time does not have time. Length doesn't have length. What's your point?
Are you saying matter and energy can cease to exist?
No, I think I was quite clear in that the 2 x 4 can be changed in a sufficient amount that any reasonable person would stop calling it a 2 x 4.
What was that thing I visualized as a 2 x 4? Wasn't it matter and energy? Wasn't what was left after I burned it in the fire matter and energy?
It was a piece of wood 2 inches thick, 4 inches wide, and 2 foot long. After you burned it, it wasn't. Thus there was a time period where that configuration of energy was called a 2x4, now it is something else.
If you want to say 'but energy might be eternal', I'd say sure, that might be true, but it doesn't mean objects of human definition have to considered eternal.
So explain how we travel through time.
I've answered this question.
I am not traveling through time. Time tells you the length of the duration between events in my life.
Does what you call that process have any bearing on the topic?
That is very true. But I am not alone.
If you believe that Columbus proved the earth was round you wouldn't be alone either. You'd still be wrong.
Duration does not vary.
Some folks clocks just run faster than other folks clocks. You can not speed the ratation of the earth up nor can you slow it down and that rotation relative to the sun is what seconds, minutes, hours, and days are based upon.
Observation disagrees with you. Though the the measurement we used was initially because of the timings of the sun in our sky, that does not mean that is the definition of time or duration or whatever. Now we look to other, much more regular effects, such as vibrations of atoms and the like. But if the atom is travelling at high speeds, people at low speeds will see it vibrating at a different rate. If you were travelling at the same speed it will appear to be as normal.
If he is correct which he is not as I do not believe the universe had a beginning to exist, but has had duration in existence for infinite eternity past and will have infinite existence into future with makeover's along that journey.
Of course, you cited a paper which disproves this.
But creationist tell me that time is a dimension of the universe and time did not exist until the universe began to exist.
Even if it is not a dimension, it is something. And if nothing exists, neither does duration.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 3:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2012 7:51 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 422 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2012 10:55 AM Modulous has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 418 of 558 (681509)
11-26-2012 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by ICANT
11-25-2012 4:49 PM


Re: Why Time is a Dimension
ICANT writes:
God has a physical body very similar to yours.
God is omnipresent. Everywhere.
I see Him and talk to Him and He talks to me all the time.
You say why can't I see Him then? Because you are not looking for Him.
I didn't know how to respond to this in my first post, but I simply have to know. When you say God has a physical body does he actually have a male or female body for example?
Also, like onifre, I'm wondering do you literally mean you hear him, or do you "feel his words" or something like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2012 4:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2012 11:09 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 419 of 558 (681510)
11-26-2012 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Alfred Maddenstein
11-25-2012 8:43 PM


Re: travel through time
Dimension is a co-ordinate you specify a location of an object with. You cannot travel through any of the co-ordinates.
OK, but then that would mean 'travel through space' was wrong too. But we can go from one co-ordinate to another both spatially and temporally (within certain limitations) that's all I was saying.
You need to start with the basics, Mod.
I started with Newton, did a brief tour of pre-Newton and worked my way up to the beginnings of Einstein. What else do I need to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 11-25-2012 8:43 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 420 of 558 (681511)
11-26-2012 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Modulous
11-26-2012 7:32 AM


lumber
A 2 by 4 (affectionately pronounced tube-buh-foh) actually measures 1.5 inches by 3.5 inches.
Nit picking NoNukes

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2012 7:32 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024