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Author | Topic: The one and only non-creationist in this forum. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
What's the difference between "some form" and "non-exstence"?
The universe exists today. It either has either existed eternally in some form. OR It had a beginning to exist in non-existence.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It either has either existed eternally in some form. OR It had a beginning to exist in non-existence. I see no alternative and none has been presented to date.
1. It had a beginning to exist in existence.2. It emerged from a state of quasi-existence. 3. It existed eternally but for a finite amount of time. 4. Two half-verses were combined into one universe.
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3997 days) Posts: 565 Joined:
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Make sure you don't wet yourself when you have the next bout of wishful thinking.
Your brazen gall offers stiff competition to Tacky's chutzpah, Pandita. If you scroll up the cat's posts you will find already plenty of examples of stuff popping out of nothing in the bigbunkist hypothesis. Now consider the devil's energy. Energy is convertible to stuff. It's actually stuff translating motion on other stuff. The volume of space allegedly increases all the time. That is exponential indeed. The devil's energy remains constant per each freshly created from nothing cubic unit. Convertible to matter or mass per Einstein. Stuff out of nothing, silly. Zero physical justification in your beloved pseudo-science you suggest the moggy must study more.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Panda,
Panda writes: No: it doesn't require a beginning; it requires an "extremely hot and dense state". Are you saying it existed in a "extremely hot and dense state" 13.7 billion years ago? If so when did it begin to exist in that "extremely hot and dense state"? OR Had it always existed in that "extremely hot and dense state"? If so what caused it to began to expand 13.7 billion years ago rather than 2 trillion years ago?
Panda writes: Well, it doesn't currently exist in its original form.And I don't know how long it existed previous to the BB. Good answers. According to science the universe has not always existed in its present form and has been changing all of its existence. According to the Bible it has not always existed in its present form and has been constantly changing. Regardless of how long the universe existed previous to the BB the universe has always existed in some form or the universe had a beginning to exist.
Panda writes: It existed in exactly the same place that our universe currently exists. I agree. It either existed in existence or it did not exist as there was non-existence. Can you fathom non-existence
Panda writes: Where do you think the universe exists? I believe it has always existed in eternal existence in some form. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: What's the difference between "some form" and "non-exstence"? Some form = materials that was used in the formation of the universe existed. Non-existence = none of the materials in the universe existed in any form. It would be impossible for 1 particle of any kind to begin to exist in non-existence. If you can fathom what non-existence is then you will understand why it is impossible. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Panda writes:
Can you show where the Big Bang Theory says that something is multiplied by zero?Mad writes:
It would have been quicker if you had just typed 'No'. Make sure you don't wet yourself when you have the next bout of wishful thinking.Your brazen gall offers stiff competition to Tacky's chutzpah, Pandita. If you scroll up the cat's posts you will find already plenty of examples of stuff popping out of nothing in the bigbunkist hypothesis. Now consider the devil's energy. Energy is convertible to stuff. It's actually stuff translating motion on other stuff. The volume of space allegedly increases all the time. That is exponential indeed. The devil's energy remains constant per each freshly created from nothing cubic unit. Convertible to matter or mass per Einstein. Stuff out of nothing, silly. Zero physical justification in your beloved pseudo-science you suggest the moggy must study more. "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi CS,
Let's examine your proposals 1 at the time.
Catholic Scientist writes: 1. It had a beginning to exist in existence. That would require existence to exist.Which would mean the materials for creation of the universe would exist. That is what Genesis 1:1 says, with which I agree. Unless you are proposing that the universe began to exist ex nihilo in existence, is that what you would be suggestion with #1.
Catholic Scientist writes: 2. It emerged from a state of quasi-existence. So it existed in In some manner or to some degree. Definition of quasi-
Catholic Scientist writes: 3. It existed eternally but for a finite amount of time. Eternal means infinite duration. In other words without beginning or end. You have proposed an oxymora as something that is infinite can not be finite.
Catholic Scientist writes: 4. Two half-verses were combined into one universe. So two existing universes combined to create our universe. When did your 2 half verses begin to exist or had the existed eternally in the past? You want to try to come up with a real alternative to the universe having always existed in some form or having a beginning to exist in non-existence. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I don't know when it began to exist in that state - and the BBT says nothing about it either.
Are you saying it existed in a "extremely hot and dense state" 13.7 billion years ago? If so when did it begin to exist in that "extremely hot and dense state"? ICANT writes:
Do you know the word 'tautology'? It either existed in existence or it did not exist as there was non-existence.... I believe it has always existed in eternal existence in some form. Anyway, that is a false dichotomy.There are many other alternatives. One of them is that a god existed and he began the universe's existence - but there are many others if you don't like that one. Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
ICANT writes: The universe exists today. It either has either existed eternally in some form. OR It had a beginning to exist in non-existence. I see no alternative and none has been presented to date. What does the word "universe" mean to you? Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I see you've decided on insisting that your's are the only two options. I have provided other options. If I find time to waste arguing about it with you, then I'll post here again. Until then, good day sir!
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Panda,
Panda writes: I don't know when it began to exist in that state - and the BBT says nothing about it either. What would cause it to heat up to 100 million trillion trillion degrees at 10 -43 if it had not existed eternally at that temperature? Temperature from Stephen Hawking's Universe. Best Paytm Cash Earning Games in India | Free Apps to Win Cash online
Panda writes: Do you know the word 'tautology'? Yep.
quote:Tautology -- from Wolfram MathWorld Panda writes: Anyway, that is a false dichotomy. quote:False dilemma - RationalWiki No one has presented a third option yet. Until then I see it as an axiom of truth.
Panda writes: There are many other alternatives. Then by all means present them.
Panda writes: One of them is that a god existed and he began the universe's existence Present your evidence that God created the universe ex nihilo. The only things created in Genesis ex nihilo was what was translated as great whales in Genesis 1:21 and mankind male and female in Genesis 1:27 everything else was formed and made from existing material.
Panda writes: but there are many others if you don't like that one. Knock yourself out presenting other alternatives to existing or beginning to exist. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Omnivorous,
Omnivorous writes: What does the word "universe" mean to you? All that exists in what we call the universe. I have been told by cavediver and others there is nothing outside of the universe. But I do believe that there is existence outside of the universe in which the universe exists and expands. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I don't know - and the BBT says nothing about it either.
What would cause it to heat up to 100 million trillion trillion degrees at 10 -43 if it had not existed eternally at that temperature? ICANT writes:
Well, it's time for you to learn something new:
Panda writes: Do you know the word 'tautology'? Yep.
quote:Tautology -- from Wolfram MathWorld quote:Tautology (language) - Wikipedia ICANT writes:
Please present your evidence to support: Present your evidence that God created the universe ex nihilo.quote:You claimed there were only 2 options. I then showed you that there was more. You are now trying to cover up your mistake by moving the goal posts. ICANT writes:
Who said anything about that god? The only things created in Genesis ex nihilo was what was translated as great whales in Genesis 1:21 and mankind male and female in Genesis 1:27 everything else was formed and made from existing material."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Panda,
Panda writes: You claimed there were only 2 options.I then showed you that there was more. You are now trying to cover up your mistake by moving the goal posts. I have not moved the goal posts and there is still only 2 options. You presented:
quote: A god existed.That god caused the universe you mention to begin to exist. My two options. 1. The universe has always existed in some form.OR 2. The universe began to exist. The option you presented goes under # 2. Care to try again? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I'll remind you of what you actually said: I have not moved the goal posts and there is still only 2 options.... My two options. 1. The universe has always existed in some form.OR 2. The universe began to exist. quote: But, if you want to retract your claim and change it to the 2 options above, then fine."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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