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Author | Topic: Morality without god | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Ah, I assumed you had read the Bible. My mistake. Gen 3:22 writes:22 And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Note that it is not some minor bit player like Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, not some small person like Paul or Peter, but God saying that. Ah, I assumed you had read the Bible. My mistake.
Gen 3:22 writes: 22 And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Note that it is not some minor bit player like Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, not some small person like Paul or Peter, but God saying that.+ And I guess you forgot the passage just before that that says. "Let us make man in our IMAGE after our likeness" God put the knowlegde of godd and evil in us when he created us in his image
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Ah, I see you really haven't read the Bible.
No, that passage has nothing to do with right, wrong or morality. Man received the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But either way it is irrelevant. According to no less a personage that God herself The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Man knows right and wrong, good and evil and so can establish morality and even evolve morality over time. No god need apply. In fact the Bible even says that when God is about to act immorally it is up to man to point out that God is about to behave immorally and needs to stop and think.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
No, that passage has nothing to do with right, wrong or morality. Man received the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. With respect and as usual you havent thought things through or given critical thinking any consideration Adam and Eve had been given a command prior to eating, that they could clearly understand. Now without the abiltiy to choose between good and evil, the command would make no sense and there would be no reason to give a command to someone who could not understand it The were already created in the image of God and knew how to decide between good and evil. details of good and evil in specifics does not mean they could not choose between good and evil. those are two differnt things Dawn bertot
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
In fact the Bible even says that when God is about to act immorally it is up to man to point out that God is about to behave immorally and needs to stop and think. I cant wait to see where you think this gem of wisdom, given by yourself, is set out in ther scriptures Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In many ways I agree with you, the story doesn't make any sense but that doesn't change what it says.
Sure Adam and Eve had no way to know that they should obey God over the serpent and so the God characters behavior in punishing them was unreasonable and capricious. But that doesn't change what the story says. The story says that God gave them commands without giving them the tools they needed to know they should obey them. It is only after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they were capable of understanding. The story goes into some detail about how the knowledge of right and wrong comes on them AFTER eating the fruit. Read the Bible sometime, there are some interesting stories there. Here it is in full for you.
Genesis 2-3 writes: Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV) 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. And don't worry, I've read the Bible and so can also support the other assertions. Try it as homework and see if you can find it. Like the others it is from one of the earlier stories so shouldn't take you too long to find it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Sure Adam and Eve had no way to know that they should obey God over the serpent and so the God characters behavior in punishing them was unreasonable and capricious. But that doesn't change what the story says. Im sorry but these kinds of comments demonstrate that it is both unreasonable and untenable that any serious conversation can be sought in conversation with you If they werent given the TOOLS to know what to do, how could she converse with the serpent and show clear distinction between right and wrong. hence the following
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Im still interested in ypour second assumption about God acting immorally Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But they did not know what they should do, Eve simply repeats the commands that were given. No where in the story does it say they had the tools to know right from wrong.
If they already knew right from wrong the there is no reason for the god character to create the tree or forbid them eating from it. But that's what the story says. Regardless of how you quote mine it or take it out of context or try to claim that Adam was made in God's image the story says otherwise. And do your homework, read the Bible, and them maybe you too will learn a little. In the end though, to bring it back to the topic, whether man was given the knowledge of right and wrong by being created in God's image (which is from a whole different story) or by eating from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, man still has the same knowledge of right and wrong that God has and so according to the Bible does not need God to set or evolve moral standards.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
thats non-sense Yes, Dawn, it is. And it is also your position. Whereas, let me explain this to you, when I said it I was being sarcastic.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Yes, Dawn, it is. And it is also your position. Whereas, let me explain this to you, when I said it I was being sarcastic. Yes I understood that and when I said that it was non-sense, I meant your entire post Sorry though, even in sarcasm that is not my position in the least. Even if you could demonstrate that emotions are an actual thing, they have actual existence, you would still need to demonstrate that the supposed right and wrong that flow out of them, (perceptions) are that, exacally right and wrong. Right and wrong, strickly from a person or persons perspective are nothing but contemplations. When there is disagreemnt in these perceptions, there is no way to know which is right or wrong, without a standard, because you are dealing with abstraction. How do you find what is right or wrong in abstract contemplations Hence nothing but endless speculation and subjectivity. thats assuming that speculation and subjectivity are actually something that could be understood as well In a subjective context even speculation and subjectivity have no meaning, except for the fact that reality does allow you this one observation, that with no absolute standard, everything is meaningless from the standpoint of a percieved morality and as a logical proposition But that is all reality will allow. I know this one thing for sure, because it cannot be shown to be otherwise and no amout of information will change that conclusion Dawn Bertot
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
If they already knew right from wrong the there is no reason for the god character to create the tree or forbid them eating from it. And you know this because you have more information than God, correct? How did you come to such a dogmatic moral conclusion? what is the objective way you come to this bold assertion? Should we consider your conclusions in this matter as tenable or absolute. Yours is an assertion with no support in any logical fashion. You first have to establish in logical form, why I should even consider your DOGMATIC assertions. we cant just assume they are true
Regardless of how you quote mine it or take it out of context or try to claim that Adam was made in God's image the story says otherwise. Assuming, for the sake of argument the story is true and God exists. It does not surprise me that a fellow that thinks he has more information and better reasoning abilites than God, should make the above statement First you assert your moral statements are valid, then you tell that they were not made in the image of God next youll tell me we are not actually having this discussion
or by eating from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, man still has the same knowledge of right and wrong that God has and so according to the Bible does not need God to set or evolve moral standards. And you guys said Buz was loony. You really make me laugh Jar. Really Jar, you have be faking being that simplistic. Ive often wondered if you are a devil worshiper, always saying the wrong or exact oppistie thing in every instance just to confuse or interupt the process You remind me of that part in the exorcist, where the older priest says to the younger, "dont try and communicate with it, it will lie and lie to confuse." I not trying to be funny or insulting, you just seem to be either amazingly ignorant or purposely pointless and confusing, just to interupt the process Oh well Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I am simply repeating what the Bible says.
No where does the Bible say that Adam was made in God's image. The Character Adam first appears in the story found in Genesis 2. I'm simply saying what the Bible says; try reading it sometime. The topic is on morality. The Bible says that man has the same knowledge of good and evil that God has.
Gen 3 writes: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Read what it says, "Behold the man is become as one of us: to know good and evil:". Note the world become. That says that before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil man did not have that ability. Sorry but the fact is that the Bible says that man has the same knowledge of right and wrong as God does and so man is capable of setting moral standards and evolving those moral standards over time.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
The topic is on morality. The Bible says that man has the same knowledge of good and evil that God has. Note the world become. That says that before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil man did not have that ability. Ive already addressed this issue, to which you gave no formal argument, except to ignore or disagree. You have to show in a logical way why they did not understand the intial command before they ate, why she could reason with the serpent about it, showing she clearly understood and why she understood the punishment involved I next pointed out there is a difference between understanding right and wrong and knowing all the specifics of Good and Evil The text clearly communicates they understood this point You have to show why my conclusions derived from the text are invalid. You cant just disagree formally Dawn Bertot
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Too funny.
Read the Bible.
Gen 3 writes: 3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. The woman did not reason with the serpent, she simply repeated what she had been told. Nor did she make a moral decision to disobey, she simply acted just like any little kid, saw the fruit was pretty and good to eat and that she had been told that that it would make her wise she ate. The text clearly shows you have never read what was written.
Gen 3 writes: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: You may not like what the Bible says but that is what the Bible says. In this case what the serpent said would happen was true and what God said would happen did not happen.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
The woman did not reason with the serpent, she simply repeated what she had been told. Nor did she make a moral decision to disobey, she simply acted just like any little kid, saw the fruit was pretty and good to eat and that she had been told that that it would make her wise she ate. When she countered the serpents argument, by saying but we were told not to do that, of course she was reasoning. How any person can come to the conclusion that anything but rational discourse was taking place, is just being evasive here is a challenge Jar. Get 100 people to read it and see what results you come up with And of course we always punish children with death because we know ahead of time they really didnt understand the command we gave them. I dont kick my children out of my house when they disobey. These were not children Dawn bertot
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
When she countered the serpents argument, by saying but we were told not to do that ... But she didn't, unless you're reading it backwards. You're not reading it backwards, are you? Don't do that. She says that God has commanded her not to eat the fruit. Then the snake puts up his argument. Then she doesn't counter his argument at all, she just eats the fruit.
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