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Author Topic:   Aurora Colorado Violence
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 213 of 236 (668965)
07-26-2012 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by DevilsAdvocate
07-25-2012 7:04 PM


Re: Gun control question
The Bill of Rights and specifically the 2nd Ammendment say nothing about a militia "defending against an army using handguns and assault rifles".
No, it says "arms" which is an even more inclusive category than "handguns and assault rifles." In US vs. Miller, the Supreme Court was very clear that the arms made permissible by the Second Amendment were precisely those that were of a "military order", when they ruled that a sawed-off shotgun by virtue of its inaccuracy and unreliability would not be a weapon used by an orderly military or that could contribute to the general defense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-25-2012 7:04 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 214 of 236 (668966)
07-26-2012 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Dr Adequate
07-26-2012 1:52 AM


Re: Gun control question
No, it's determined by whether or not it is a pistol grip.
A pistol grip is the grip of a pistol. If we're talking about a rifle, then the grip of a rifle is a rifle grip, by definition. How can a rifle have a pistol grip if a rifle is not a pistol?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-26-2012 1:52 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-26-2012 8:33 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 221 of 236 (669097)
07-26-2012 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dr Adequate
07-26-2012 8:33 PM


Re: Gun control question
A pistol grip is something which allows you to hold something more or less at right-angles to the way it's pointing, like a pistol.
Ok, but this rifle has a grip where you hold it more or less at right-angles to the way it's pointing:
Is this a "pistol grip"? Why or why not? And what makes a "pistol grip" on a rifle unacceptably dangerous on a rifle but not on a pistol?
Isn't this part of the law a regulation on nothing more than the appearance of the weapon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-26-2012 8:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2012 1:17 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 227 of 236 (669118)
07-27-2012 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Dr Adequate
07-27-2012 1:17 AM


Re: Pistol Grip
Since all pistols have a pistol grip
Do they? Here's a pistol (a Luger) with what you specified before was a "semi-pistol grip":
there's no need to specify this as one of the features which makes a pistol unacceptably assault-weapon-ish any more than they needed to put "fires bullets out of one end" on the list.
But the bill doesn't consider pistols to be "unacceptably assault-weapon-ish." That's the point - despite banning rifles with pistol grips, pistols with pistol grips are perfectly OK provided that they lack other identified "dangerous" features. But if a pistol grip is dangerous on a rifle, I fail to see by what basis a pistol grip is any less dangerous on a pistol.
Well, the military, who want their weapons to be assault weapons, use pistol grips, whereas skeet shooters (for example) who don't, use traditional rifle grips.
But this is a military weapon:
The US military issued over 1.5 million such rifles to servicemen between the rifle's introduction in 1959 to the present day; as DA noted in the other thread, the M14 assault rifle is still in widespread service.
Yet it has no pistol grip, no flash suppressor, no forestock grip, nor any of the other characteristics identified in the "assault weapons" ban with the result that the rifle was not banned by the 1994 law.
So is it the military, here, that doesn't know what it's doing - equipping servicemen with a rifle no more dangerous than a varmint gun - or is it maybe the lawmakers who don't know what they're doing?
Here's another pistol-grip-lacking military weapon, the famous P90:
A truly tremendous gun, but this weapon certainly lacks a "grip that allows you to hold it at more or less right angles to the direction it's pointing". This gun didn't exist at the time of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, and aside from the high-capacity magazine and select-fire mode (both of which are options, not intrinsic to the rifle) it's difficult to see any basis on which a singlefire version of this rifle would have been blocked by that law.
But is that because it's a less dangerous gun? I don't see how that could possibly be the case, and again, this is a rifle in military use. So, again, is it the world's militaries who don't know what they're doing, or might it have been the lawmakers who wrote the Federal "assault weapons ban" without having any relevant criteria for what actually constitutes a "dangerous" rifle?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2012 1:17 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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