Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,207 Year: 5,464/9,624 Month: 489/323 Week: 129/204 Day: 3/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Aurora Colorado Violence
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 130 of 236 (668770)
07-24-2012 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
07-24-2012 7:06 AM


Re: Gun control question
Why should I believe that caliber is a proxy for "danger"?
You shouldn't, An AR15 shoots 223 Remington or 5.56x45, a Ruger 10-22 shoots 22 Long Rifle rimfire, Both are 22 caliber bullets. Velocity and shape of the bullets are the main differences.
22LR--
40 gr (2.6 g) Solid 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 104 ftlbf (141 J)
223 Remington--
36 gr (2.3 g) JHP 3,750 ft/s (1,140 m/s) 1,124 ftlbf (1,524 J)
22LR will not pass through body armor, 223 will pass through armor. (most body armor have provisions for add-on ballistic plates for chest and back that can defeat some high power rifle rounds.)
The difference between a 50 caliber BMG and a 50 caliber pistol round is similar.
Magazine capacity is the main difference between my 308 hunting rifle and my FN FAL, both are semi-auto. The Fn FAL would be the weapon of choice for combat, for no other reason than magazine capacity being they both shoot the same round.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2012 7:06 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 135 of 236 (668781)
07-24-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by DevilsAdvocate
07-24-2012 11:41 AM


Re: Gun control question
Not allowing people to buy arsenols of guns and ammo with little to no regulation or tracking.
Short of not selling guns at all then no amount of laws and regulations would have stopped the killer from buying a gun and bullets legally.
I have always thought it would be easier to place tighter control on ammunition and materials needed to reload your own, this could limit the amount you buy over a period of time and or make bullets expensive (tax them?). You wouldn't have to do it to all bullets either, and it would apply to all current stockpiles of ammo now available.
I wouldn't mind paying more for the ammo I will hunt deer with this year, I will shoot less than 40 rounds between zeroing in my rifle and hunting, there is no need for me to buy 1000 rds. People who competitively shoot could buy a permit to buy in bulk maybe.
Just a few thoughts....

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-24-2012 11:41 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 139 of 236 (668787)
07-24-2012 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Panda
07-24-2012 12:44 PM


Hi Panda,
It can be difficult for someone who hasn't grown up with guns and the freedom to own them to understand the mentality of many Americans when it pertains to gun ownership. I grew up hunting and it was a right of passage as a boy to get a bb gun, then as a young man to receive my first real gun. I was taught well and consider myself to be a responsible owner.
I own several weapons that have been passed down through the years from father to son, some guns for hunting and a couple for cheap target practice. I have a couple just because I can. I keep all of them in a gun safe unloaded, except for 1 shotgun for home defense as well as a 45 auto for the same purpose, I have no kids and my only concern would be having them stole. When I go out for any period of time then they get locked up with the others.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Panda, posted 07-24-2012 12:44 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Panda, posted 07-24-2012 6:46 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 145 of 236 (668795)
07-24-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by hooah212002
07-24-2012 1:39 PM


Re: Gun control question
Because most people judge danger by the potential to harm.
Caliber is a poor way to judge how powerful or dangerous a bullet is. Which would you think was the more powerful and dangerous round, a .17 Remington Fireball or a .22 Winchester Magnum with the same weight bullets?
.22 WMR 30 gr (1.9 g) HP 2,200 ft/s (670 m/s) 322 ftlbf
.17 RF 30 gr (1.9 g) HP 3,569 ft/s (1,088 m/s) 849 ftlbf
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2012 1:39 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 148 of 236 (668798)
07-24-2012 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by hooah212002
07-24-2012 2:17 PM


Re: Gun control question
So is a .22 pistol more dangerous (all other things equal) than a Barrett M82A1? Because, like crash says, handguns are more dangerous than rifles.
In close quarters yes.
I think that is part of the problem we are having here, some guns and rounds are better in certain circumstances, a shotgun is great for clearing rooms if it doesn't matter what gets hit. What may be more dangerous in one environment may not hold true in another. A man with a glock 40 is a lot less of a threat at 100 yrds then a man with a nice .22 rifle.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2012 2:17 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2012 2:30 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 151 of 236 (668801)
07-24-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by hooah212002
07-24-2012 2:30 PM


Re: Gun control question
landmines and RPG's and shit.
LOL... One of my fist thoughts was that the price he paid for one gun could of been spent on making a bomb that could have been a whole lot more destructive than what he achieved. (glad he didn't go down that path) I could go to 3 places in town and make a terrible IED in a day.
We are fortunate in many ways, getting on a bus in the US isn't much of a gamble, in some countries it is. Funny how some people in countries that don't have many guns per person have to worry about getting blown up at the market or on a bus.
If a man is determined to do bad, he will find a way.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2012 2:30 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 153 of 236 (668803)
07-24-2012 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2012 2:40 PM


Re: Gun control question
Crash seems to be talking about danger to society via death, which is fair in a discussion about what kind of gun laws should be enacted. He's calling handguns more dangerous than rifles because more people are killed each year by handguns than rifles. If you want to enact a law that protects people from being killed by guns, then handguns would be better to focus on than rifles.
Ok...Once all the handguns are gone the people will be getting killed with rifles and shotguns, then we get rid of them and use knives??? Where does it end?

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2012 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2012 3:00 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied
 Message 188 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 4:39 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 171 of 236 (668839)
07-24-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Panda
07-24-2012 6:46 PM


Allowing every man/woman in America to be armed is good.
???? WTF?? I never said or support what you are saying.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Panda, posted 07-24-2012 6:46 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Panda, posted 07-25-2012 5:22 AM fearandloathing has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 189 of 236 (668904)
07-25-2012 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by onifre
07-25-2012 4:39 PM


Re: Gun control question
Getting rid of handguns would be a great first step though
How do we realistically do that?
Controlling ammunition seems to be a better long term solution to me.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 4:39 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 4:55 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 192 of 236 (668910)
07-25-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by onifre
07-25-2012 4:55 PM


Re: Gun control question
First make the manufacturing of hand guns and assault (whatever the fuck) weapons illegal, and go from there.
I don't disagree with you on many points, but you know as well as I do that what you are suggesting is un-realistic BS. Look at all the loopholes and grandfathered weapons and magazines that were excluded from the ban on assault weapons.
Short of door to door searches how do we get rid of handguns?
From what I understand, it's not hard at all to make your own ammo.
Controlling reloading wouldn't be that hard, powder, primers and bullets could be controlled same as any other ammo..
If you think it is easy to make your own black powder or gun. cotton...ect... then I urge you to try.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 4:55 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 5:19 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 200 of 236 (668920)
07-25-2012 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by onifre
07-25-2012 5:19 PM


Re: Gun control question
Then begin a "turn in your gun to avoid a fine/arrest" program at all police stations. Then, after a resonable amount of time, anyone caught with one is punished (start with a fine and the gun is taken away, all the way to jail time for not following the law.)
Am I going to be paid the fair market value of my guns when I turn them in?? What about historical guns? Would I be paid a fair price for my 1851 Colt Navy Revolver?

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 5:19 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by onifre, posted 07-25-2012 6:04 PM fearandloathing has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4258 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 232 of 236 (669620)
07-31-2012 5:10 PM


Psychiatric Care
James Holmes was under psychiatric care from Dr. Lynne Fenton, she is the director of student mental health services at the University of Colorado's Anschutz Medical Campus. Dr. Fenton was sent a package that the JH defense now wants returned. I can only wonder what this package contained, Fox has went as far as saying it was a notebook detailing his plans to attack others. I wonder the same things Fox does, when did she get and read this? Could this have been stopped by his psychiatrist?
I really don't know the ins and outs on Dr./patient confidentiality when it comes to a clear threat to public safety, or whether JHs package would constitute Dr. Fenton calling the authorities? I do know doctors can have you committed.
Unfortunately this case should be interesting to follow. Did JH plan on an insanity plea, from what he posted on Adult Friend Finder and Match,com in addition to sending a package of (???) to his psychiatrist he seems to have thought out all of this. Buying guns and ammo for 3 months prior to the attack doesn't help his case either.
I think it could all come down to him knowing right from wrong, and I feel he did or else he would have never asked " will you come see me in prison" on his profiles for Match and Adult FF.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by 1.61803, posted 08-01-2012 11:24 AM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 08-01-2012 11:49 AM fearandloathing has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024