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Author Topic:   German judge rules child circumcision as child abuse.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 410 (666886)
06-30-2012 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Jazzns
06-30-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Yada Responses
That is because a few minutes after birth your sons were given a Vit-K shot which activates their ability to clot. Without that shot, the body starts to produce it on its own in....about a week.
Coincidence or divine revelation?
Divine revelation, since the eighth day would require nothing.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2137 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 167 of 410 (666888)
06-30-2012 10:20 PM


The argument that circumcision is medically beneficial falls flat when compared against other conditions, such as breast cancer.
Penile cancer is estimated at 1/100,000. Breast cancer is now about 1/8.
If circumcision is medically advantageous, at 1/100,000, then certainly breast removal during infancy is far more medically advantageous.
And at that point the whole argument falls apart.
Circumcision is being done for religious reasons, and nothing more.
When are we going to stop being ruled by those voices in the shamans' silly heads?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Jazzns, posted 06-30-2012 10:36 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 171 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 12:53 AM Coyote has not replied
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(2)
Message 168 of 410 (666889)
06-30-2012 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Coyote
06-30-2012 10:20 PM


I am actually a little bit surprised to see you fall on this side of the line. I would have thought that your libertarianism would have you siding with Jon.
Or are you not going so far as to say it should be banned?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Coyote, posted 06-30-2012 10:20 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Coyote, posted 06-30-2012 11:05 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2137 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 169 of 410 (666891)
06-30-2012 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Jazzns
06-30-2012 10:36 PM


Banned?
This and all other forms of ritual genital mutilation should be banned on underage victims.
After that, they can do any silly things to themselves that they choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Jazzns, posted 06-30-2012 10:36 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 170 of 410 (666894)
07-01-2012 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Buzsaw
06-30-2012 2:03 PM


Re: Should be outlawed
Hi Buz...glad to be in a conversation with you.
Can you cite one bonafide example of lunatics having purposely caused injury or death via circumcision?
Of course not. That was just me reducing the strength of of my point to allow for a very unlikely, but NON-ZERO, probability that there might exist out there some lunatics such as these. Eliminating the anecdotal at the outset, so to speak.
Also:
How about an example of a circumcision which has not been performed, exacting a precisely shaped cut on the infant with 99.98% accuracy.
Silly me, I thought you would understand the hyperbole here.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 171 of 410 (666895)
07-01-2012 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Coyote
06-30-2012 10:20 PM


Circumcision is being done for religious reasons, and nothing more.
An absolute lie, of course; but you can all continue to believe what you like.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Coyote, posted 06-30-2012 10:20 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by saab93f, posted 07-01-2012 6:30 AM Jon has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 172 of 410 (666896)
07-01-2012 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Coyote
06-30-2012 11:05 PM


Re: Banned?
After that, they can do any silly things to themselves that they choose.
Exactly. Perhaps we agree on more than we think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Coyote, posted 06-30-2012 11:05 PM Coyote has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 173 of 410 (666903)
07-01-2012 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Jon
07-01-2012 12:53 AM


quote:
An absolute lie, of course; but you can all continue to believe what you like.
Of course these days circumcisions are performed on medical basis too but to claim that its origins had been anything but religious IS a absolute lie methinks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 12:53 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2508 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 174 of 410 (666904)
07-01-2012 6:44 AM


A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
I found this fascinating, and I think a must read for some of the commentators on this thread. So, rather than just linking, I'll copy it into the thread in order to try to persuade all to read it, and to make it easy to refer back to later in the thread if anyone wishes to.
This thread's discussion has a lot to do with cultural bias in science/medicine as well as religious involvement in it, and....well....wanking!
The paper's in two parts, and I'll put it in two posts. The end of this first part partially explains the medical division between the U.K. and the U.S. on the issue, which developed mainly from the 1930s onwards; the British remaining in tune with the rest of Europe while the U.S. diverged markedly in its attitude from the rest of the scientific world.
A short history of circumcision in the United States: Part 1.
quote:
A short history of circumcision in the United States: Part 1
Medical science in the service of Victorian morals
(The following article was originally given as a paper to the Fourth International Symposium on Sexual Mutilations, held at Lausanne, Switzerland, in August 1996. Although it may seem rather dated today, it blazed the research trail for others, and remains a milestone in the excavation of the true history of medically rationalised circumcision. It is a remarkable pioneering effort to uncover the truth by going back and reading the almost incredible things that doctors did not so long ago, and about which they reported, often with grisly detail, in their own professional journals. The thoroughness of the bibliography alone makes this paper one that no student of the history of circumcision can afford to ignore.)
A short history of enforced circumcision in the United States.
For the past 130 years the American medical industry has been involved in the business of removing part or all of the external sexual organs of male and female children. While the origins of sexual mutilations among prehistoric and primitive peoples is a matter for theory and speculation, the origin and spread of sexual mutilation in American medical practice can be precisely documented. Seen in the proper context of the entire scope of western history, the modern American enigma of institutionalized sexual mutilation is an historic aberration of profound significance and degree, one that could never have been predicted, and one that perhaps could not have been avoided.
1. Modernization
The introduction and spread of institutionalized secular sexual mutilation was a response to the tremendous social and cultural anxieties engendered by the effects of the rapid modernization and industrialization of the early decades of the nineteenth century. As the traditional rural-agrarian economy was transformed into an urbanized capitalist economy, parallel changes occurred in social structure, governmental and non-governmental institutions, demographics and technology. One significant result of these changes was the ascendancy of the middle class to positions of economic and political power. The emergent middle class was now in a position to reinterpret social mores and redefine the individual for all of society. ...
Circumcision is not common among Negroes. Many Negroes are promiscuous. In Negroes there is little circumcision, little knowledge or fear of venereal disease, and promiscuity in almost a hornets nest of infection. Thus the venereal rate in Negroes has remained high. Between these two extremes there is the gentile, with a venereal disease rate higher than that of Jews, but much lower than that of Negroes. [62]
In the same study Hand reported that cancer of the tongue was more common among men with foreskins than among Jews. Newsweek gave generous coverage to these sensational findings, thereby fuelling the popular perception that a policy of mass circumcision was both scientifically valid and of critical importance to the future security of the nation. [63]
5.2 Douglas Gairdner saves the British foreskin
In December 1949 the British Medical Journal published The fate of the foreskin, a landmark study by Cambridge pediatrician Douglas Gairdner (1910-1992). Drawing on the research of Deibert ad Hunter, and presenting his own meticulous observations on preputial development, adhesion and retractability, Gairdner debunked the phimosis myth and demonstrated that non-retractability, adhesion and length were the normal conditions of the infant foreskin, and that separation occurred gradually as the boy got older. His paper also reviewed the standard list of the benefits of circumcision (cancer, syphilis) and rejected them as spurious. Circumcision rates in Britain had been declining since the 1930s, when doctors had become concerned at the high incidence of injury and death, and Gairdner’s paper gave it the death blow. [64] Under the new National Health Service established in 1948, parents who asked to have their boy circumcised were told that it was not an approved procedure and that if they wanted it they would have to pay to get it done privately. As you would expect, when a price was put on the operation most parents decided that it was not really necessary after all, and the incidence of circumcision declined rapidly.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminModulous, : I hid most of the lengthy cut and paste. Even if it is interesting (which it is), it's way too long for EvC debate. Please extract the gold and refer to the source for further information, thanks.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 9:50 AM bluegenes has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 410 (666905)
07-01-2012 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Coyote
06-30-2012 11:05 PM


Re: Banned?
Banned?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coyote writes:
This and all other forms of ritual genital mutilation should be banned on underage victims.
After that, they can do any silly things to themselves that they choose.
You have yet to establish that circumcision mutilates a child. You have yet to refute the cited benefits of circumcision.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Coyote, posted 06-30-2012 11:05 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2012 12:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2508 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 176 of 410 (666906)
07-01-2012 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by bluegenes
07-01-2012 6:44 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
History of circumcision in the U.S.: Part 2.
As the O.P. concerns a case in Germany, note the interesting paragraph concerning attempts by U.S. companies to proselytize circumcision in Germany during the influence of the occupation.
By East Asian standards, circumcision is particularly high in South Korea, also due to U.S. influence during the Korean war. Most other markets have largely resisted large scale consumption of the Gomco clamp.
quote:
7. Conclusion
The historical record makes it clear that in the late nineteenth century American physicians sought to institutionalise genital mutilation of both boys and girls as a means of eliminating childhood sexuality, and that their efforts were successful in the case of boys, unsuccessful in the case of girls. Doctors circumcised boys to denude, desensitise and disable the penis to such an extent as to make masturbation impossible, or at least not worth the effort. Clitoridectomy of girls was introduced for the same reason. While the medical establishment’s use of popular fears about masturbation to justify mass circumcision has remained pretty constant since Victorian times, the subsequent supplementary excuses offered to justify circumcision follow a clearly defined pattern: whatever incurable disease happens to be the focus of national attention at any given time will be the disease that circumcision advocates will cite as a reason for circumcision. In the 1870s, when epilepsy was the disease of the moment, circumcision advocates claimed that circumcision could cure and prevent epilepsy. In the 1940s, when STDs were the focus of national health fears, they claimed that circumcision could prevent the spread of STDs. In the 1950s, when everybody was obsessed with cancer, circumcision advocates claimed that circumcision could prevent all sorts of cancers — of the penis, of the tongue of the prostate and of the cervix. Since the late 1980s, when HIV-AIDS became the greatest health scare since the Black Death, circumcision advocates have predictably claimed that circumcision is the answer to AIDS control.
Ironically, and despite these claims, the United States, for all that most of the men are circumcised, does not have a particularly good health record, and on most indicators is well behind places such as Japan and Scandinavia, where circumcision is practically unknown. Today the USA has both the highest percentage of sexually active, circumcised men and one of the highest rates of genital cancers and STDs in the western world. The paradox implicit in this history is that even though mass circumcision has been ineffective as a public health measure, and has done little to control either cancers or STDs, the American medical establishment has clung to its faith in circumcision and consistently sought to find new justifications for it. Their priority does not seem to have been maximising public health, but maximising their foreskin harvest. Such unscientific allegiance to an ineffective and harmful surgical procedure, when good sense would suggest the adoption of more conservative and more effective strategies, suggests that there may be a deeper, non-rational dynamic behind circumcision advocacy, and that it is not just matter of simply applying, as they so often claim, the discoveries of medical science to public health policy. [139]
The history of the institutionalisation of involuntary circumcision in the United States demonstrates that American society has been willing to apply what it takes to be scientific measures at the expense of personal liberty. It is tempting to dismiss circumcision as merely a quaint example of medical quackery pursued by a handful of zealous doctors. We would do better to remember that in the name of scientific progress, millions of American citizens have been subjected to genital mutilation and deprived of an integral, functional and beautiful part of their body. In the face of increasing international criticism and constitutional challenges we must wonder how much longer the medical establishment will be able to continue to indulge in the kinds of illogical thinking and disregard for human rights that underpin their commitment to circumcision as prophylaxis and therapy.
Edited by AdminModulous, : The lengthy text is still there, I've just hidden most of it, so if you want to edit differently than I did you can do.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 410 (666912)
07-01-2012 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by saab93f
07-01-2012 6:30 AM


to claim that its origins had been anything but religious IS a absolute lie methinks.
Yes; you thinks. But can you supports?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by saab93f, posted 07-01-2012 6:30 AM saab93f has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 410 (666913)
07-01-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by bluegenes
07-01-2012 6:44 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
This thread's discussion has a lot to do with cultural bias in science/medicine as well as religious involvement in it, and....well....wanking!
No it doesn't.
This thread has to do with why certain members of society over-obsess on matters of sexuality and feel a right to make everyone else's sexuality their priority.
This thread is about people who are, quite frankly, too damn hung upand creepily soon what happens with the penises of other people's children.
This thread's discussion has to do with whether a parent should have the right to make medical decisions for their child.
When it comes to tonsils, teeth, ears, and twin-branding, it's apparently okay to leave it up to the folks. But if it has to do with peepees, then suddenly everyone's interested in legislating what rights parents have over their children.
And, lastly, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with wanking.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 6:44 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by saab93f, posted 07-01-2012 10:29 AM Jon has replied
 Message 181 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 10:44 AM Jon has replied
 Message 191 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2012 12:11 PM Jon has replied
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 07-01-2012 12:48 PM Jon has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(2)
Message 179 of 410 (666914)
07-01-2012 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
07-01-2012 9:50 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
quote:
No it doesn't.
This thread has to do with why certain members of society over-obsess on matters of sexuality and feel a right to make everyone else's sexuality their priority.
This thread is about people who are, quite frankly, too damn hung upand creepily soon what happens with the penises of other people's children.
This thread's discussion has to do with whether a parent should have the right to make medical decisions for their child.
When it comes to tonsils, teeth, ears, and twin-branding, it's apparently okay to leave it up to the folks. But if it has to do with peepees, then suddenly everyone's interested in legislating what rights parents have over their children.
And, lastly, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with wanking.
Jon
8No it doesn't.
This thread has to do with why certain members of society over-obsess on matters of sexuality and feel a right to make everyone else's sexuality their priority.
This thread is about people who are, quite frankly, too damn hung upand creepily soon what happens with the penises of other people's children.
This thread's discussion has to do with whether a parent should have the right to make medical decisions for their child.
When it comes to tonsils, teeth, ears, and twin-branding, it's apparently okay to leave it up to the folks. But if it has to do with peepees, then suddenly everyone's interested in legislating what rights parents have over their children.
And, lastly, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with wanking.
Jon
Why is the sexual aspect then used at all as a rationale? And first of all, why does a healthy piece of a child need to be removed if not for cultural reasons? As said earlier - if a grown man wants to have his healthy foreskin removed, fine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 9:50 AM Jon has replied

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 410 (666915)
07-01-2012 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by saab93f
07-01-2012 10:29 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Why is the sexual aspect then used at all as a rationale?
Who cares what the rationale is? This thread isn't about the rationale. It's about whether parents have the right.
... why does a healthy piece of a child need to be removed if not for cultural reasons?
It needs to be removed for the obvious reason that the parents told the doctor to remove it.
if a grown man wants to have his healthy foreskin removed, fine.
This thread isn't about grown men. It's about infants.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by saab93f, posted 07-01-2012 10:29 AM saab93f has not replied

Replies to this message:
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