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Author Topic:   Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 4 of 65 (662998)
05-19-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc.
Sure, that's one way to put it. The classic formulation is "do not unnecessarily multiply entities."
According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.
No, it's not, and a finite universe is simpler than an infinite one (less entities; infinitely less entities, in fact.) So Occam's Razor suggests that we should posit a finite universe.
According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form.
Since "God" is, in Laplace's famous formulation, unneeded as a hypothesis, Occam's Razor suggests that we do not posit the existence of a God, Biblical or otherwise. Occam's Razor suggests atheism.
As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID.
Crystals - a highly ordered form of matter - are trivially observed to spontaneously form from liquid solutions. Liquids are highly disordered. Order can be observed to arise from disorder every winter, or in the formation of rock candy as a simple syrup cools on the counter. These happen regardless of the presence of any intelligence. Occam's razor therefore suggests that order arises naturally from disorder under specific conditions.
Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc
Strictly speaking, the pure iron, being crystalline and therefore brittle, is highly ordered. Smiths make tools by alloying iron with impurities (carbon, vanadium, other rare earth metals) and inducing it, by cycles of heating and cooling, to become highly disordered and random in structure. The more a steel is disordered on a molecular level, the stronger it is.
Tool steel doesn't naturally reform into ore, so that should indicate to you the direction of increasing entropy. Smiths shape tools by inducing iron to adopt a more entropic configuration - to become highly disordered.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 65 (663002)
05-19-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space.
Space can easily be finite without being bounded. The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area, but without any borders at all. Space might very well be the same. Indeed, a cursory examination of the night sky should serve to prove that the universe must be finite in time and space; looking into an infinite universe at any point in the sky, your vision would terminate in a star no matter where you looked. Since the night sky is not a uniform sea of bright starlight, but a lightless void punctuated by the occasional star, we know that the universe is finite in time and space.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 13 of 65 (663007)
05-19-2012 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 8:56 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system.
I assumed you had the imagination and intelligence to apply the notion to a 3D space, but I see I was mistaken. The mathematics is equally applicable; a volume can be finite but unbounded just as an area can, since volume is just the integration of area over distance.
Calculus makes a lot of things possible. I eschewed math early in my college career, but recently forced myself to complete it. It was surprisingly rewarding and I continue to reap the benefits.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 22 of 65 (663016)
05-19-2012 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 10:19 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
You will note that I emphasied BY AND LARGE
Then you've committed the fallacy of the looming caveat; crystals are incredibly common, most elements and compounds can be induced to adopt a crystalline structure under quite prosaic conditions, and usually they do so because the enthalpy change of the system under those conditions as it crystalizes exceeds the entropy loss.
That happens all over the place, Buz, and it's not just something you can sweepingly dismiss with a "by and large." It's a direct and omnipresent counterexample that you can't just pretend is nonexistent.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 05-20-2012 7:47 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 65 (663017)
05-19-2012 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 10:13 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
To apply a 3 metrical dimenal model
Is this even meant to be English?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 43 of 65 (663071)
05-21-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
05-20-2012 7:47 AM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
The forming of crystals involves a lot less time, and work.
Well, that's untrue. There are crystals that form incredibly quickly, some that form incredibly slowly, and much in between. Below New Mexico is the world's slowest-growing crystal, which has grown at a rate of 40 microns per century for several million years.
As we're trying to tell you, crystals aren't something you can sweepingly brush aside and claim that order doesn't form from chaos. Order forms from chaos all the time, and we understand the phenomenon so well that we know exactly under what circumstances that will occur - when the system, in doing so, can undergo a favorable change in enthalpy that offsets the unfavorable decrease in entropy.
The formation of crystals, etc, requires no intellgent planning or thought, nor does it involve life.
Life is, fundamentally, a crystalline phenomenon; it's also a phenomenon where a favorable change in chemical free energy frequently offsets an unfavorable decrease in entropy. It's a simple principle.
On the other hand, the creation of a complex human body from chaotic dirt would require intelligent planning and work.
It would, I guess, but the Book of Genesis is the only place where human bodies formed from dirt. In the real world, they form from other human bodies.

This message is a reply to:
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