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Author Topic:   Buying a new computer
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 35 of 55 (629959)
08-21-2011 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
08-21-2011 11:12 AM


I don't think Stile is a "gaming enthusiast."
I know he's not. I was saying that because it is, IMO, the gaming/enthusiast community who puts the newest tech through all the rigors. SSD have solidified their role as boot/OS drives. Prices on them are dropping, getting close to $1.50/gb.
Secondly, as far as the sequential times are concerned: this is moot with the advent of SATA3, which yields double the speed the SATA2.
I still like my CPU/motherboard combo better than yours.
I admit that what I proposed was a very rough first draft. It was by no means meant to be an end all be all. I also really like the ROG series. I actually almost picked up a Crosshair IV the other day.
But, you've got me thinking about looking for an SSD for my ASUS laptop in a year or so.
I would really say that your only limiting factor in waiting should be price.
Sorry about that, linked it from my old-ass blog. Can you see it at magbast.blogspot.com?
Good god man! Clean up those cables! You do realize that cable management is far from being only for aesthetic purposes? Good cable management promotes better quality airflow.
I'd put some pics of mine up, but it is nowhere near complete. I just got my new chip (phenom II X4 840) and cooler (Cooler Master Hyper 212+). I also just got my RAID built early last week, so I haven't had a chance to do any cable management myself. Having 4 hard drives and a Radeon HD 5770 in an Antec 300 is no small feat lol.
Still don't know that I would recommend it to Stile but now I'm thinking.
You know, come to think of it, I don't really think a layperson should go with a muli hard drive set up because it is a lot of work. I think it is a better idea to just go with a single large drive for regular joe schmoes until NAND comes down in price. I got my first Spinpoint before I got my SSD (this was meant to be a budget build that went waaayyyy over budget) and had Kubuntu on it. It ran great for being a mechanical. It's been so long since I've ran windows on a mechanical of my own that I can't remember. I'm hooked on SSD's.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2011 11:12 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2011 2:10 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 37 of 55 (629962)
08-21-2011 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
08-21-2011 2:10 PM


What kind of RPM would you suggest?
The Samsung Spinpoint F3 is hands down the best deal for a large mechanical hard drive. It beats the Caviar Blacks and is very often on sale for $49.99, which is how much both of mine were. Caviar Blacks are great hard drives, but they are just too expensive.
{abe}
7200 RPM, 32mb cache is what to look for. Sure, the Caviar Blacks are SATA3 compatible, but mechanical hard drives can't even saturate SATA2 yet so it doesn't matter.
{abe #2}
Here is a good review done at bit-tech. You'll see how the F3 is not only top tier when it comes to performance, but also one of the cheapest 1tb mechanical hard drives, and IS the cheapest when on sale.
Bit-tech review of Spinpoint F3
bit-tech writes:
There’s only one way to say it — the Samsung Spinpoint F3 is the fastest hard disk drive we’ve ever had the pleasure of testing here at bit-tech, having ripped through our benchmarks like a butchers knife through wet loo roll.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2011 2:10 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 40 of 55 (630091)
08-22-2011 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Stile
08-22-2011 10:58 AM


Re: Thanks for the Info
I know you replied to Crash, but I can respond just the same.
That is, make sure applications are installed on the OS drive... and make sure data is stored on the data drive? That's not really too difficult, and I think we could easily handle that. Or are there other concerns we should be aware of?
Nope, that's about it. If you have any sort of IT knowledge, it's not difficult.
What size is "small" for the OS drive? Like, 250Gb or so?
That depends on how much you want to spend. My SSD is 64gb, which is plenty for Windows, Office and plenty of programs. My games and whatnot go on my RAID array.
One thing I don't really understand, though... you say an SSD has the potential to "wear out it's sectors" faster than a regular drive.
In my line of work (Industrial Automation) I deal with relays and such in electrical panels. In this context, SSD is always longer lasting and faster than mechanical devices (they're just more expensive). However, these relays are simply switching a 24VDC signal on and off. They are not dealing with 'saving memory' or anything like that. It's just, to me, it is un-intuitive to think of an SSD piece of equipment as having a shorter life-span than a mechanical system. Are you able to shed some more light on this?
I've had mine for ~2 weeks:
Says I've got 8 years left.
What you need to look for with SSD's is what controller they use, as that is the determining factor when it comes to performance and stability.The last generation Intel X series were top of the line when it came to reliability, but lack in performance. The same is true for this year's models.
I can safely say, that with firmware updates, any SSD you pick up will last as long, if not longer, than any other piece of hardware.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 10:58 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 41 of 55 (630094)
08-22-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Stile
08-22-2011 11:05 AM


Re: Cool specs
Is 60Gb average for an OS hard-drive?
It's entirely all up to you and what you feel comfortable with. There really is no "average", per se. Some people want 128gb, some want 250. It just depends on how much you want to be able to put on it.
If I install all applications and the OS on a 60Gb hard-drive... wouldn't it fill up rather quickly? Or am I missing something on how to use the two drives together?
Apps and OS...no, it shouldn't. But that depends on what applications you are talking about.
From the last few games I purchased... years ago now... aren't they starting to take up, like, 10-15 Gb per installation?
If you have games you want on your SSD, I would recommend at the very least 90gb SSD. What you can do is calculate how much space everything takes up now and figure out how big you need your boot drive to be.
-Is Newegg the generally-accepted best place to purchase computer components?
Definitely. HOWEVER.....they are not, by any means, the end all be all only place to go. Amazon has some good deals as well. I just found a site called superbiiz and they have good prices too, except the shipping sucks lol. I normally do stick with Newegg though.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 11:05 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 1:01 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 43 of 55 (630114)
08-22-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Stile
08-22-2011 1:01 PM


Re: Cool specs
1. On the OS-drive - faster loading/unloading, but the smaller this is, the easier it is for the OS (which is the biggest concern) to do what it needs to do quickly and efficiently.
This is true if you short stroke (explanation of Shrot Stroking further down), but not for SSD's.
However, for SSD's the converse is true. Larger SSD's perform better than smaller ones because they have more NAND chips (NAND is the storage tech used in SSD's) to write across. With SSD's, you can think of the NAND chips being in somewhat of a RAID fashion and that is why they are faster than mechanical drives.
2. On the Data-drive - slower loading/unloading, but lots of room for anything. Any applications/data can go on this drive, they'll just have a somewhat slower load time on them. However, they won't take up any room on the OS drive which may affect the OS performance.
Yes, except that SSD's no longer lose performance when filled up. They perform just as well having all your programs on them as they would if you had OS only.
On system A, I load a game on the 1 drive and it will have such-and-such performance.
If I take the same game and load it on the same standard mechanical data drive but now on system B... will system B still load/play the game slightly faster just because the operating system alone is on a faster drive? I'm guessing that yes, it will?
Actually, no. It depends entirely on what type if disk your are loading the game on.
You can also do what is called "short stroke". Short stroking is where you take one hard drive, SSD or mechanical, and create two or more partitions. Generally, you create a smallish partition on the front of the drive for your OS, while leaving the remainder for media nd storage. This will also give you an increase in load times for OS and apps.
So, if you do decide to go with a single mechanical, you can do a smallish partition on the front of the drive for OS and apps, say ~100 gb, then another for games, say ~300gb, then the remainder for media and storage of stuff. This, of course, is under the assumption you get at least a 1tb hard drive.
Or....you get an SSD and a 1tb. You can do the same ~300gb for games and the rest for media/storage/backups/whatever.
I recommend AT LEAST a 60gb SSD if you go that route. However, it really all depends on how well you can manage disk space and how much you want to spend. A good 64gb SSD is going to run around $100 and 128gb around $200, so on and so forth.
Here is my hard drive set up:

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 1:01 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 45 of 55 (630156)
08-22-2011 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
08-22-2011 7:40 PM


Re: Thanks for the Info
Modern SSD's have a lifespan of greater than 1 million write cycles.
Here is an Anandtech article duscussing SSD lifespan:
Think about your primary hard drive. How often do you fill it to capacity, erase and start over again? Intel estimates that even if you wrote 20GB of data to your drive per day, its X25-M would be able to last you at least 5 years. Realistically, that’s a value far higher than you’ll use consistently.
The Intel X25-M is not even a current model and uses an older controller. Plus, this article is from 2009. Technology increases every year.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2011 7:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2011 8:03 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 47 of 55 (630167)
08-22-2011 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by crashfrog
08-22-2011 8:03 PM


Re: Thanks for the Info
Further
Michael Yang, flash marketing manager at Samsung
"There are also concerns about wear. That is, flash has the potential to wear out after tens (or hundreds) of thousands of write cycles.
This characterization, however, is too simplistic. A flash device that is rated at 100,000 write cycles, for example, can write 100,000 times to every single (memory) cell within the device. In other words, the device doesn't write to the same cell over and over again but spreads out the writes over many different cells. This is achieved through wear leveling which is carried out by the SSD's controller.
This would make it virtually impossible to wear out a flash chip. A pattern could be perpetually repeated in which a 64GB SSD is completely filled with data, erased, filled again, then erased again every hour of every day for years, and the user still wouldn't reach the theoretical write limit.
Samsung defends flash reliability in solid-state drives
It is difficult to find recent articles because it is pretty well established that they are just as reliable, if not more so, as standard mechanical drives, particularly due to the fact that they do not have any moving parts. And, as stated before, each year controllers get better and wear leveling gets better.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2011 8:03 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 48 of 55 (630290)
08-23-2011 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-20-2011 3:43 PM


Just to further the point that an i7 isn't worth the extra cost, here is a post over at my other internet home that I just made. I know it's testemonial evidence and that doesn't bode too well around these parts, but it really is the consensus that an i5 is sufficient.
I honestly am having a hard time anymore even convincing myself as to why I should stick to AMD, let alone recommend it to anyone other than someone on an EXTREMELY tight budget. The price to performance just isn't there. I've heard tell that an i3 (which is a dual core) can perform just as well as a AMD quad. Plus, there's the whole memory limitation deal.
Hopefully with Ivy Bridge, Sandy Bridge comes down in price so I can make the leap.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 3:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by crashfrog, posted 08-23-2011 11:32 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 50 of 55 (630327)
08-24-2011 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by crashfrog
08-23-2011 11:32 PM


The memory controller is extremely limited. The RAM I have is rated 1600MHZ, but I'll be damned if I can't get it to run past 1300. I wouldn't have that problem with ANY Intel rig.
Some proof at the G-Skill forums
Some at the AMD forums
This isn't something I think AMD is forthcoming about because if they did, it would be basically admitting defeat and saying they can't compete with Intel. It's more something that has been discovered in the community.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by crashfrog, posted 08-23-2011 11:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 51 of 55 (630348)
08-24-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by crashfrog
08-23-2011 11:32 PM


TechReport when the Phenom II came out on AM3: (better than forum posts, no?)
The new Phenom IIs officially support DDR3 memory at up to 1333MHz, but the multipliers are present for 1600MHz operation, as well, as they are in high-end Core 2 and Core i7 systems. Unlike the Core i7, the Phenom II still has "only" two memory channels onboard, not three. I say "only" because each channel of DDR3-1333 memory can transfer up to 10.7 GB/s. Combined with the 2GHz HyperTransport 3 link on each CPU, the total bandwidth available via Socket AM3 is roughly 37.3 GB/s, considerably more than the peak data rate of 10.7 GB/s available via a Core 2 processor's front-side bus (even if it is less than the staggering 64 GB/s possible with a Core i7-965 Extreme and three channels of DDR3 at 1600MHz.) One caveat: the Phenom II only supports 1333MHz DDR3at least, officiallywith a single DIMM in each memory channel. With four DDR3 DIMMs, 1066MHz is the standard. Such limitations are nothing new, of course. Previous Phenoms have long supported 1066MHz DDR2 memory, but only with a single DIMM per channel.
That said, it is not impossible, per se, but it IS a bitch to get RAM to run above 1333. The trade off then, it seems, is to underclock and get timings as tight as possible.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by crashfrog, posted 08-23-2011 11:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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