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Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
cavediver writes:
quote:quote: It's government money. Therefore, if religious items are going to be included, they need to have some signficance beyond their sectarian purpose. And not just trivially so but significanctly so. It's why religious schools can't receive government funds. Yes, the educational purpose of schools is very important, but if the school is going to teach religious doctrine, then that overwhelms any other purpose. Even if it's only a single prayer given at graduation after 12 years of completely secular education, that single act is a violation of the Constitution and cannot be allowed. The only significance of this particular item is specifically tied to its religious patina. It wasn't the piece that was hit by the planes, it wasn't the first or last piece of the building laid, it wasn't the piece that was proof that the architectural design would work, or anything like that. Since it has no purpose other than as a religious item, it doesn't belong in a government museum. It belongs in a church.
quote: Is there something other than its religious significance that makes it important? Hint: You said so yourself as to why it might have some significance other than as a religious site.
quote: Is there something other than its religious significance that makes it important? Hint: You said so yourself as to why it might have some significance other than as a religious tally.
quote: Yes. The number of people who imparted religious significance is irrelevant since the only significance this item has is religious.
quote: Is a heart a religious symbol?
quote: Is OSL a religious symbol? You may not like that religion has been singled out, but the Constitution has specifically done so.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 avoids the question yet again:
quote: I choose a third option: You didn't actually answer the question. Thus, there is no issue of comprehension. If I ask you what color the sky is, your response of "Yahtzee!" isn't an answer. What other significance does this item have?
quote: What history? It has no historical significance. All it has is religious significance. Be specific: Was it the piece of the buildings that was hit by the planes? Was it the first piece of the buildings laid? The last piece? Was it the first piece to fail from the inferno? You keep saying it has historical significance, but you keep failing to express what it is.
quote: What value is that? I've asked you over and over again to describe what it is, but you have yet to come up with anything that isn't connected to its religion. What other purpose does it have? If the only thing that makes it significant is religion, then it doesn't belong in the museum. It belongs in a church.
quote: No, it isn't. That's the same religious significance that makes it invalid for this museum. What other significance does it have?
quote: So was every other piece of rubble. Why is this one so important? What other significance does it have?
quote: So is every other piece of rubble. Why is this one so important? What other significance does it have?
quote:quote: Oh? Why? What other signficance does it have?
quote: Then what historical significance does this piece have that any other random piece of rubble doesn't have? The museum is for items of historical significance. If any random piece of rubble you might have pulled out of the pile doesn't rise to the level of historical significance required to be included in this museum, why does this one rate while none of the others do? What other significance does it have?
quote: The First Amendment. That's why there's a lawsuit.
quote: You do realize that your second sentence contradicts the first, yes? Because the museum is for a secular purpose, it necessarily has a religious test for curatorial value on all pieces. If it doesn't have a secular purpose, then it necessarily does not belong in the museum. This piece only have sectarian significance. If you disagree, then what other significance does it have?
quote: Indeed, but this object's signficance is solely religious. It has no other meaning. If you disagree, then what other significance does it have?
quote: Since this item has absolutely no significance except as a religious artifact, then it clearly violates your admitted litmus test of excluding items with a "primary purpose of advancing religion." What other significance does it have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist responds to me:
quote: If "ifs" and "ands" were pots and pans, there'd be no room for dishes. Indeed, it "could" have had a lot of other factors that contribute to it being an historical piece, but what are they? Perhaps you can do what AZPaul3 is incapable of and describe what other significance this piece has.
quote: Insufficient. No significant meeting took place there. It's not like it's where Bush gave his speech. It wasn't the location where anything of any importance was found. It's not like the cleanup crews were involved in any activity that wasn't copied in multiple other meeting spots (I think people forget just how big the World Trade Center complex is...this wasn't the only place people met.) So if this particular piece of stuff is going to be singled out, it needs to have something of significance that separates it from all the other pieces of rubble and meeting places that were there. If the only thing that makes this one stand out among all the rest is a religious purpose, then it doesn't belong in the museum. It belongs in a church. What other signficance does it have?
quote: Ah, yes...the "god doesn't mean god" argument. As if some nebulous reference to god somehow strips it of all religious pretense. If only we can make the concept so abstract as to not have any dogma other than an insistent claim that god exists, then it has nothing to do with religion, right? But you do realize that your claim is laughable on its face, yes? Are you seriously claiming that a cross isn't "tied to a specific religion"?
quote: You mean you don't know? When you read other people's minds, do you have to concentrate to hear them or is it always on and you have to concentrate to separate out the one voice from the many?
quote:quote: Because if it is "disrespectful" to display a piece of rubble that doesn't reflect the religious patina people have painted on it, then the purpose of the item isn't secular but sectarian. Its only significance is the religious symbolism it represents. If people are upset because the item is acknowledged but specifically outside of its religious significance, then its significance is necessarily religious. We're back to the "god doesn't mean god" argument. Take a look at the "in god we trust" issue we have with the money. People (including Kennedy on the Supreme Court) seem to think that the word "god" in that phrase doesn't actually mean a reference to god. But take a look at the response to the idea of removing that phrase: It's naught but howls from the religious that they are being "disrespected." If that's the case, then clearly the word "god" in that phrase means precisely god and it is obvious to all but the most foolish observer that the phrase is inappropriate. Since the people complaining about this item not being displayed are doing so out of a claim that it is "disrespecting" their religion, then it is clear that the only significance this item serves is religious in nature. There are plenty of other pieces of rubble that have identical historical resumes to this particular piece of rubble. So what makes this one so important that it should be chosen over any of the others? What other significance does it have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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IamJoseph responds to me:
quote: Incorrect. You are not Humpty Dumpty and words do not mean what you choose them to mean. The phrase, "The Golden Rule," has a very specific meaning: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." We get that you don't like this meaning being attached to that phrase, but that's your problem. "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you" is also a very ancient philosophy...but it is known as the "Silver Rule." The words you are looking for are, "Oh. I didn't know that." That you don't like the fact that "the Golden Rule" applies to a philosophy that isn't what you thought it was does not let you redefine "black" as "white" and snidely claim everybody else is stupid.
quote: Incorrect. What you proferred was the Silver Rule, which was espoused by Hillel, yes. He also espoused the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Are you having trouble with the idea that Hillel put forward both?
quote: No, you didn't. You brought in a non sequitur. Isabella I's actions have no connection to the Golden Rule. Nor does penicillin have anything to do with the Golden or Silver Rules. You really need to stop and go back to read the history of philosophy. Confucius not enamored of the Golden Rule. When asked about the Golden Rule's admonition to repay evil with kidness, he replied: "Then with what will you repay kindness?" It's why Martin Luther King, Jr. and Gandhi expounded the Silver Rule: While it's wrong to do evil to your enemy, that doesn't mean you have to take it, either. Resist, but non-violently. I highly recommend you read Carl Sagan's article regarding philosophy and the ideas of the Golden, Silver, Brazen, and Iron Rules. Hint: I am not questioning your valuation of the Golden or Silver Rules. I am simply pointing out that the phrase, "The Golden Rule," specifically and solely means: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you are referring to a different philsophy, then you cannot call that other philosophy, "The Golden Rule," because that already means something else. The philosophy you espoused, "Do not do unto others what you wouldn't have them do unto you," is specifically known as "The Silver Rule." As an example, I am not questioning a person's preference of "black" over "white." I am simply pointing out that the word "black" means the absence of color and cannot be arbitrarily redefined to mean something else.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph responds to me:
quote:quote:Words mean what they mean, not what someone says it means. That's what I just said. Therefore, you don't get to just say that the "Golden Rule" means "Do not do unto others what you would not have them to unto you." The phrase "Golden Rule" simply does not mean that. You don't get to redefine "black" as "white" and then whine when nobody understands you. The words you are looking for are, "Oops. I misspoke. Indeed, I am talking about the Silver Rule." You can then go on to describe how important you find it to be in ethics and you would be in fine company. Hillel, for example, pointed out both the Golden and Silver Rules. As I mentioned, Confucius wasn't too big of a proponent of the Golden Rule as a sole foundation of ethics. Plenty of other philosophers have talked about the subject and the inadequacies of the Golden Rule and the need for other principles to lead an ethical life. I'll probably agree with you. The Golden Rule isn't enough to live a good life. But none of that changes what the phrase "The Golden Rule" means. There may be ethical rules that we feel to be just as if not more important than that, but the language has already associated the philosophy of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" with the phrase, "The Golden Rule."
quote: Um, "black" is the absence of photons. It appears that you really do want to redefine words and then whine about it when nobody understands you.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 evades the question yet again:
quote: What history? What historical significance does this object have that any other random piece of rubble doesn't?
quote: Incorrect. All you did was acknowledge the religious significance. I'm asking about this supposed "historical" significance you are claiming it has. What is this significance that this object has that any other random piece of rubble doesn't? Be specific.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist responds to me:
quote: And that isn't a hint that this item is of little to no significance?
quote: As did many other places. Why should this one be singled out over the others?
quote: Why? Because of its religious patina. Therefore, that isn't a reason to include it in a government museum. That's a reason to include it in a church.
quote: Huh? How did it help? Did it find people? Did someone trapped in the wreckage write directions on where they could be found? Was it the only way to set up lights in the area to help find people? Was its material and positional peculiarities such that it was serving as an antenna to coordinate rescue workers? Did it serve as a shield to protect other people when rubble was falling? Just how did this piece of junk "help in the recovery efforts"?
quote: Compared to all other random pieces of rubble? If "being an actual piece of the buildings" makes it museum-worthy, why did we send it all to the dump? As I directly said: There might be a reason for this object if there was any historical significance to it. There's plenty of religious significance, but that's a reason for it to be in a church. We need something else. "It was part of the building" isn't enough because there are literally buildings' worth of wreckage we could use. What makes this one so special?
quote:quote: Because I checked.
quote: Because I am someone who can analyze things. If you think there was a significant meeting held there, then by all means produce your evidence. You've already admitted that you can't find much. Isn't that a hint to you?
quote:quote:No, I'm not claiming that. Did you or did you not say the following:
In general, I don't think that having a spiritual aspect automatically makes something non-secular. It needs to be tied to a specific religion. How is a cross not "tied to a specific religion"? Hint: In order to show you the failure of your conlusion, I am accepting your premise that in order to have a "non-secular purpose," an object must be "tied to a specific religion." Isn't a cross "tied to a specific religion"? Thus, by your own logic, this item is decidedly non-secular.
quote: And thus, it is non-secular.
quote: And what role was that? There are other pieces that do the same thing. Why should this one be accepted over all the others?
quote: Indeed, but you will notice the great hue and cry that is going out over the idea of displaying it as a piece of rubble. That indicates that its significance is sectarian in nature and overwhelms any other it may have. Therefore, it would be much more effective to leave it in its secular surroundings at the church and use another piece of rubble that is just as important in all the other ways but isn't coated with religion for the museum.
quote: The ones who took it to a church and had it blessed.
quote: Indeed. What is a purely religious object doing in a secular museum?
quote: But so far, you haven't put forward a single reason to keep it. Yeah, it's a piece of debris. There is a dump full of the stuff. Why is this one, so covered in religion, of so much more significance that we should use it over any of the others?
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? Are you seriously wondering exactly how much debris was created by the collapse of Towers 1 and 2 and Building 7? They carted it all off to the dump.
quote: Because it was all being carted away. If it was so significant, why wasn't it kept? What's so special about this one? It isn't because it's the only piece.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
quote: Which is a pretty good reason to exclude it from the museum and leave it at the church. It's causing a distraction.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question:
quote: Then what other significance does this item have?
quote: Then surely you can tell us what it is. What other significance does this item have?
quote: (*chuckle*) Why do you think there's a lawsuit? What other significance does this item have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question:
quote: Then what other significance does this item have? I know, I know...you'll just refer to previous posts. But since I maintain those don't actually show any evidence, perhaps you will be so kind as to rephrase what you said before.
quote: Refuted in Message 181.
quote: And refuted again in Message 183.
quote: And then refuted yet again in Message 195. You need to come up with something new. What other significance does this item have? Edited by Rrhain, : Added refutation references.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the very simple question:
quote: Then you should be able to tell us what the other significance of the object is. What are you waiting for?
quote: Refuted in Message 181.
quote: And refuted again in Message 183.
quote: And then refuted yet again in Message 195. You need to come up with something new. What other significance does this item have?
quote:quote: Then you have no argument.
quote: Refuted in Message 181.
quote: And refuted again in Message 183.
quote: And then refuted yet again in Message 195. You need to come up with something new. What other significance does this item have?
quote: Yep. When faced with a request for you to justify your claims, you will run away rather than stand up for your own argument. Do you want to go around again or do you want to answer the question? It's really very simple: What other significance does this object have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist responds to me:
quote: Shouldn't that be a hint to you?
quote: So why do you think there's a lawsuit? You seem to have a very skewed set of rules for whose word you'll take.
quote: Why is that sufficient? What about the rubble where Bush gave his speech? That's much more historically significant and it isn't being displayed. Why should a crossbeam that had no important event take place at it be venerated?
quote: To whom? There were plenty of other bits that did the same thing and they're not being displayed. What's so special about this one?
quote: How did it help the recovery effort? Was anybody found because of it?
quote: Yes, it is. The only reason an object is in a museum is because it is significant. Otherwise, it's just a piece of junk and should be carted away the way the rest of the rubble was. It's being placed in the museum because people think it is significant but it seems the only significance this particular article has is religious in nature. That makes it significant for a church, not a museum.
quote: Why do you think there's a lawsuit? It's impossible for them to have made a mistake?
quote: No, not that it's "too religious." That it has no significance other than its theological patina. Suppose there were a church that was a waystation on the Underground Railroad. It clearly is soaked in religion, but its historical significance is sufficient that we don't care and it would be ludicrous not to do what we can to preserve it for future generations.
quote: And your redefinition of "black" as "white" doesn't make it so. The spiritual is non-secular by definition.
quote: No, I'm not. It could be the perserved remains of the Pope. If there is some sort of significance that isn't solely religious in nature, then that is sufficient to be included in a museum. If the only significance is theological, that is a reason to put it in a church.
quote: Neither do I. It makes one wonder why you seem to think that is what my argument is. Where did I even hint at such a conclusion?
quote: Insufficient. Plenty of other places did the same thing and some were of much more historical worth. Why is this one being venerated over the others?
quote: To whom? There were plenty of other bits that did the same thing and they're not being displayed. What's so special about this one? What "recovery efforts" were enhanced? Was anybody found because of this object?
quote: No, it was taken by a church where it was then given a blessing. How is that historical in nature?
quote: Huh? It was being displayed at a church before the museum requested it. Why not keep it where it was so that it could do the most good?
quote: Are you seriously claiming that there are no pieces of rubble to be found? That this crossbeam is literally the only thing left and thus if we want to display a piece of the rubble, it is the only one to be had?
quote:quote:Maybe because the dumpers were unaware of the significance... And this piece is the only thing we have left? You seriously believe that?
quote: What significnace does this particular item have that can't be fulfilled by another piece that doesn't have the problem of being seemingly solely a religious item?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
quote: You don't see a difference between the italicized portion and the bolded? The former is non-secular while the latter is solely sectarian. What's a sectarian piece doing in a secular museum? If it's just to show a piece of rubble, knock it over. Does this item lose its importance if it's displayed as an X rather than a T? If so, then it doesn't have any historical signficiance of any kind and is solely a religious object. It should have been kept at the church where it was where it could do the most good.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
quote: So what is the history?
quote: That's not history. That's theology. That's a reason to display it in a church, not a museum. What is the history?
quote: That's not history. That's theology. That's a reason to display it in a church, not a museum. What is the history?
quote: But what was its history? You keep describing its theology:
It was a worship station on site. It was a shrine to the fallen on site. No other such artifact existed on site. No other such artifact served this purpose on site. It had a unique meaning on site that no other landmark had on site. These are facts. Indeed, those are facts. They are facts of this item's theological importance and are justifications for it being in a church. The question to you is to provide its historical significance that would justify it being in a museum.
quote: What historical ties does it have? All you have said is that there was a theological importance. What is the historical significance?
quote: Nobody disagrees with this view. Everybody understands the theological importance of this item. What you are being asked to provide is the historical significance such that it would be appropriate to display in a museum rather than a church.
quote: (*chuckle*) Since when is asking for justification for a claim "bullying and intimidation"?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the very simple question:
quote: Then you should be able to tell us what the other significance of the object is. What are you waiting for?
quote: Refuted in Message 181.
quote: And refuted again in Message 183.
quote: And then refuted yet again in Message 195.
quote: That was new, but it was refuted in Message 369. You still haven't actually answered the question, though: What other significance does this item have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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