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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 187 of 479 (628504)
08-10-2011 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:47 AM


Re: The History is Key
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not?
Those working at Ground Zero happened upon a curious bending and fusing of a girder. It was bent around into a heart shape. In the midst of all the carnage, here was a symbol that love still survived no matter how much hatred was unleashed upon it. That heart-shaped girder was placed in a prominant position and gave hope and inspiration to the workers each day. Much later, a museum dedicated to the 9/11 attack made an exhibit of the girder. But for some reason they placed it upside down. Complaints were made. Were those complaints justified?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 1:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 188 of 479 (628505)
08-10-2011 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:47 AM


Re: The History is Key
Sorry, double post.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 194 of 479 (628827)
08-13-2011 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
08-10-2011 9:05 AM


Re: The History is Key
A heart is a symbol of love and hope and if displayed upside down it loses that meaning.
In exactly the same way that a Christian cross lose it's religious symbolism if displayed upside down...
Ok, fair enough. Should the "heart" be included in the museum? Should the "cross" be included in the museum?

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 197 of 479 (628984)
08-15-2011 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Rrhain
08-14-2011 8:21 PM


But this particular piece doesn't have any real historical signficance. And its religious significance is only because a handful of people decided to make something of it.
Well, that's the crux (sorry)
Its historical significance rests on how big a "handful" we have, irrespective of whether we are talking about the "heart" or the "cross". If it really is a handful, then it's a piece of twisted metal - throw it away. But if it is all but a handful, then I think we're on to something with some historical significance.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 203 of 479 (629002)
08-15-2011 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Straggler
08-15-2011 6:20 AM


So I spose the obvious question to ask in this context is how the Christians affected by 9/11 would respond if instead of a cross it was a giant statue of Vishnu or something being proposed at the memorial museum?
Or say a Mosque just down the road?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 209 of 479 (629017)
08-15-2011 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Straggler
08-15-2011 5:35 AM


Re: The History is Key
All the arguments that can be made for including the cross can be made for your hypothetical heart. None of the arguments against the cross really apply. So yes there is no reason not to include it at all.
But that's the point. I can't really see how any argument could be for the cross' exclusion that doesn't also include the heart. Otherwise religion seems to be being treated as some special case, which is precisely what I thought we would want to avoid!
It's only has any purpose or historical role in the events of 9/11 at all as a religious symbol.
I would put it like this. The cross has significance to the workers on the site - therefore there is possible reason to include it in the museum. You may ask what type of significance, and the answer is obviously "religious significance". But it is the *significance* that makes it possibly suitable for inclusion.
Similarly with the heart: the heart has significance to the workers on the site - therefore there is possible reason to include it in the museum. You may ask what type of significance, and the answer is obviously "symbolic significance". But it is the *significance* that makes it possibly suitable for inclusion.
Similarly with the OBL-shaped bit of metal they found, that looks like it has an arrow through his head: it has significance to the workers on the site - therefore there is possible reason to include it in the museum. You may ask what type of significance, and the answer is obviously "retributional significance". But it is the *significance* that makes it possibly suitable for inclusion.
Personally, I don't like singling out religion as something that requires special treatment.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 221 by Rrhain, posted 08-16-2011 1:28 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 212 of 479 (629030)
08-15-2011 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Straggler
08-15-2011 7:21 AM


Re: The History is Key
those who are not Christians may well have a case when objecting to it as part of a memorial that is supposed to represent them and those that they have lost equally. Moslems, Hindus, atheists etc.
See, that's where I have a problem - the cross had significance to (allegedly) a large number of those clearing the site, and so that is all that maaters. I don't give a shit that the significance was religious, and I have zero interest in anyone having a problem with it, whether atheist or other-religion. It's not there for them, it's there for those that found it significant.
If a bunch of Moslem workers found a crescent shaped girder that spoke to them of Allah's grace, and that He obviously frowned on the actions of OBL and co., then that could be included as well. And I would have just as little time for the enevitable shit-storm that would ensue

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 214 of 479 (629032)
08-15-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by hooah212002
08-15-2011 8:58 AM


Re: The History is Key
Instead, the funding is from the government, which means people who oppose it still have to pay for it.
There is much art in which I personally have little interest, and some that positively annoys the fuck out of me, but my taxes still pay for the national museums to buy the stuff. I guess it's called being part of "society".

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 225 of 479 (629144)
08-16-2011 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Rrhain
08-16-2011 1:28 AM


The government doesn't get to regulate religion and religion doesn't get to meddle in the government.
I get that. What has that to do with what is included in a national museum? Are all religious artefacts to be excluded?
On a publicly-funded archaeological dig, are religious sites to be ignored?
On a publicly-funded sociological study, are religious beliefs to be ignored?
Incorrect. It had significance to only some workers on the site. And that significance was completely religious in nature.
Thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.
Let us, for sake of argument, say that it had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Do you still maintain that it does not belong in a museum?
Let us, for sake of argument, say that my heart-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum?
Let us, for sake of argument, say that my OSL-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Rrhain, posted 08-16-2011 1:28 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 236 of 479 (629248)
08-16-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Straggler
08-16-2011 3:03 PM


Re: "Secular Purpose"...........?
Sure - Like bits of the Berlin wall. But if it were just a "bit of building" it could be placed on it's side, upside down or whatever couldn't it?
Ok, I hadn't really been picturing this, but I have just thought about the presentation of the cross. If it was placed in an upright, traditional sense, I can see the problem as it could be construed as bringing the "religious significance" into the museum. Placing it upside down is just ridiculous as it looks like a deliberate attempt to offend. But placing it on its side, portraying perhaps the position in which it was found, is probably how I think it should be shown.

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Replies to this message:
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