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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 346 of 479 (629884)
08-20-2011 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Trae
08-20-2011 12:38 PM


Re: Something to chew on
Would you say that St. Peter’s in New York has historical significance?
I'm afraid I don't know enough about the history of St. Peter's and at this point I am not ready to spend time researching this one.
Did the Cathedral play some significant role in the nation's history, other than some president praying there? What would have put it on the national stage and in the nation's mind that it should be designated a National Landmark? I don't know.
How can a line be drawn with historical significance, if the line is not historical significance apart from the religious?
You do not have to. The society in the USA has had and still has a religious component. We are trying to ween society off the religious nipple but you do not do that by being blind and revisionist to the nation's history. In history the facts are the only thing that matter. This nation has, in part, a religious past and no revisionist slight of hand is going to change that fact.
If the facts of history show that some structure had a major impact on the nation and our national character, even in a religious way, then the question becomes whether or not we chose to preserve that structure. It should not matter whether something had a religious role or not. If it was significant enough to the nation's history, whether that be our secular history or our religious history, then we can debate whether or not we as a nation want to buy the thing and keep it.
What is "significant enough"? Depends on a case by case basis. Ahh, debate. Gets your blood pressure up. Good for what ails ya. That is how we decide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Trae, posted 08-20-2011 12:38 PM Trae has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 347 of 479 (629890)
08-20-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by AZPaul3
08-20-2011 6:06 PM


AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question:
quote:
This supposition is not supported by the evidence presented.
Then what other significance does this item have?
quote:
Apparently the curators have acknowledged the historical (Yahtzee) significance of the cross, which you keep saying does not exist
Then surely you can tell us what it is.
What other significance does this item have?
quote:
If you have any additional questions I suggest you contact the museum.
(*chuckle*)
Why do you think there's a lawsuit?
What other significance does this item have?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2011 6:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2011 9:07 PM Rrhain has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 348 of 479 (629895)
08-20-2011 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Rrhain
08-20-2011 8:38 PM


Round and Round and Round
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question:
This supposition is not supported by the evidence presented.
Then what other significance does this item have?
Answered in Message 177 and again in Message 182 and then yet again in Message 193.
What other significance does this item have?
Answered in Message 177 and again in Message 182 and then yet again in Message 193.
What other significance does this item have?
Answered in Message 177 and again in Message 182 and then yet again in Message 193.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Rrhain, posted 08-20-2011 8:38 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Rrhain, posted 08-20-2011 10:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 349 of 479 (629905)
08-20-2011 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by AZPaul3
08-20-2011 9:07 PM


AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question:
quote:
This supposition is not supported by the evidence presented.
Then what other significance does this item have?
I know, I know...you'll just refer to previous posts. But since I maintain those don't actually show any evidence, perhaps you will be so kind as to rephrase what you said before.
quote:
Answered in Message 177
Refuted in Message 181.
quote:
and again in Message 182
And refuted again in Message 183.
quote:
and then yet again in Message 193.
And then refuted yet again in Message 195.
You need to come up with something new.
What other significance does this item have?
Edited by Rrhain, : Added refutation references.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2011 9:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 3:50 AM Rrhain has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 350 of 479 (629912)
08-21-2011 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Rrhain
08-20-2011 10:41 PM


'Nother Round
AZPaul3 continues to avoid the question
This supposition is not supported by the evidence presented.
Then what other significance does this item have?
Answered in Message 177 and again in Message 182 and then yet again in Message 193.
But since I maintain those don't actually show any evidence ...
What you "maintain" is of no importance to me and requires no further explanation from me.
... perhaps you will be so kind as to rephrase what you said before.
No.
You need to come up with something new.
I need do no such thing.
What other significance does this item have?
Answered in Message 177 and again in Message 182 and then yet again in Message 193.
Get the picture here, Rrhain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Rrhain, posted 08-20-2011 10:41 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2011 12:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 351 of 479 (629930)
08-21-2011 8:01 AM


Enough!
If you wouldn't mind, it's extremely annoying to have people arguing about whether or not they asked or answered a question in a previous message.
It's even MORE annoying to have people arguing about whether or not they asked or answered the question that was being questioned in the previous message about what was being said in previous messages.
Is the rest of this thread going to be an infinite number of posts of:
"Did not!"
"Did so!"
"Did not not"
"Did so so"
"Did not not not"
"Did so so so"
If you believe you answered a question but someone believes you didn't, then you didn't do a good enough job answering it.
If you believe you did do a good enough job, then repost your answer in a snarky way that makes it clear you think the person is a moron for not being about to understand it.
Linking back to old messages and the old messages that refute them and the old messages that refute the refutations and the old messages that question the logic in the replies to refuted refutations requires so many pop up windows and additional tabs that just following the denials risks crashing most browsers.
The facts remain the same, as they have for PAGES now.
There is NO other purpose or importance to this letter T than the fact that it looks like a Christian symbol. It's not the only one. It's presence is not even improbably. I suspect these can be found in virtually every demolished building which had iron crossbeams.
This object is no more relevant to the history of 9/11 than the photo of "satan" in the smoke from the towers.
It's something that looks like something that _some_ religious people think is important.
Meanwhile, other religious people see it as a symbol of a religious blood feud which was responsible for the death and destruction that day.
Until a Christians can provide the following -
1) Evidence that this object has ANY significance beyond looking like a letter T
2) An explanation why they would WANT to imply that their deity had anything to do with 9/11
- there's not much left to discuss.
You guys have been utterly stomped on this thread. It's time to put up or shut up.

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 12:08 PM Nuggin has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2620
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(3)
Message 352 of 479 (629934)
08-21-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by fearandloathing
08-20-2011 7:19 PM


Re: a better symbol
F&L asks:
I wrote a whole song about them
Care to share? I would like to see the lyrics, maybe you could offer it to the WTC memorial. If you are so inclined then it might lend itself to a poem?
It's not one of my best, and the last verse would I leave off because it's kind of sappy (music missing here):
Another Human Hero
copyright 2001 Nathan A.Smith
a shell of framework in the dust
reaches upward in one last thrust
in one last anguished cry
to cling on to the sky.
and down in the smoke below the blue,
working slowly, searching through
the wreckage, as he fights off sleep,
seeking heroes beneath his feet,
you can see another hero...
you can see another hero...
you can see another hero
...at Ground Zero.
but he sees no one in the dust.
he sees no one & yet he must
keep on with all his might,
through the day & through the night,
until another takes his place
& he can finally wipe his face
& lie down & get some sleep -
then he's right back up on his feet.
he's another human hero...
he's another human hero...
he's another human hero
...at Ground Zero.
there's not a single sound in the dust.
even the air itself is crushed.
it burns into her eyes.
it chokes her throat when she cries,
but she never plans to stop.
she pushes on until she drops
into another shift of sleep -
then she's right back up on her feet.
she's another human hero...
she's another human hero...
she's another human hero
...at Ground Zero.
the framework standing in the dust
cuts down our spirit, dims our trust
in this world that would be free,
made for you & you & you & me -
a world these madmen cannot win.
our dreams are shining from within
and now we're rising from our sleep
we're standing tall, on our feet
for every human hero...
for all the world's heroes...
at all the world's Ground Zeroes...
we're standing tall for the heroes...
and we salute all the heroes...
at every Ground Zero....
-29sep2001

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by fearandloathing, posted 08-20-2011 7:19 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 9:28 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 353 of 479 (629936)
08-21-2011 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by xongsmith
08-21-2011 8:53 AM


Re: a better symbol
Excellent, I wish I was more artistically inclined. Thanks for sharing that, very moving. I think it would make an excellent addition to the memorial.
There are events I will never forget where I was when they took place. I was running late for work on 911 and heard about the first tower being hit, I thought it was some kind of joke/skit because I was listening to the John boy and Billy show. John boys tone of voice after a second or so made me stop at a friends house and wake his wife up, we were watching the first tower burn and wondering how this accident could happen? When the second plane hit I knew something bad was going down. The images of people jumping will haunt me forever.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2011 8:53 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 354 of 479 (629946)
08-21-2011 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Rrhain
08-20-2011 6:16 PM


As I directly said: There might be a reason for this object if there was any historical significance to it. There's plenty of religious significance, but that's a reason for it to be in a church. We need something else. "It was part of the building" isn't enough because there are literally buildings' worth of wreckage we could use.
What makes this one so special?
I don't have the specifics; I'm taking the museum officials' word for it. But if it was used as a meeting place and increased morale, thereby helping in the recovery effort, then it has enough significance to be in a museum.
The issue here is not whether this object is significant enough to be in a museum (it's already been deemed important enough by the officials), the issue here is whether or not its too religious for a museum that receives money from the government.
quote:
quote:
But you do realize that your claim is laughable on its face, yes? Are you seriously claiming that a cross isn't "tied to a specific religion"?
No, I'm not claiming that.
Did you or did you not say the following:
In general, I don't think that having a spiritual aspect automatically makes something non-secular. It needs to be tied to a specific religion.
How is a cross not "tied to a specific religion"?
Hint: In order to show you the failure of your conlusion, I am accepting your premise that in order to have a "non-secular purpose," an object must be "tied to a specific religion." Isn't a cross "tied to a specific religion"? Thus, by your own logic, this item is decidedly non-secular.
I said that, in general, spiritual non-secular.
You're making it as all or nothing, where one smudge of religious patina makes an item entirely non-secular. I don't agree with that.
quote:
The purpose of the cross is to be a historical artefact that tells the history of 9/11 because of the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks
And what role was that? There are other pieces that do the same thing. Why should this one be accepted over all the others?
It played a role as a meeting place and morale booster during the recovery efforts.
It was saved from the dump, and we had it right there ready for the museum. Are there other pieces lined-up and ready but being denied?
quote:
Oh really? How many pieces are there?
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you? Are you seriously wondering exactly how much debris was created by the collapse of Towers 1 and 2 and Building 7? They carted it all off to the dump.
I was asking how many pieces were left that had not been carted off to the dump.
quote:
I read that they were desperately trying to save the remaining pieces of rubble, that have no religious significance at all, because they were running out of them.
Because it was all being carted away. If it was so significant, why wasn't it kept?
Maybe because the dumpers were unaware of the significance...
Apparently there's enough significance for there to be an effort to save some of the remaining peices before they are lost too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Rrhain, posted 08-20-2011 6:16 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 11:05 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 367 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2011 12:44 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 355 of 479 (629949)
08-21-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by New Cat's Eye
08-21-2011 10:44 AM


Apparently there's enough significance for there to be an effort to save some of the remaining peices before they are lost too.
quote:
Nearly 350,000 tons of World Trade Center steel have travelled throughout the country to be reused in small and large scale tributes remembering the events of September 11th
It seems most got sold off as scrap.
Read more
quote:
After September 11th, most of the World Trade Center steel was trucked off to New Jersey salvage yards where it was broken down and sent all over the world for reuse. However, over 1,000 pieces of debris were placed in a JFK airport hangar for the Port Authority to oversee. Recently, the PA announced a program to distribute the steel to anyone who requested it for a 9/11 memorial site. The requirements were the memorial be public and free of admission charge, and the interested party would handle its own steel transportation. With nearly 2,000 applicants, the program has assisted in erecting 225 September 11th memorials throughout the country.
You can still get some, although I don't know if ultimately there will be enough to go around, after 10 years it seems like demand would be going down?

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2011 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 356 of 479 (629950)
08-21-2011 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by fearandloathing
08-19-2011 1:33 PM


Re: "Secular Purpose"...........?
Do you honestly think that is a big deal?
I see it'd be with other rubble and not being treated differently as religious.
Starting from the right:
"Thanks for comming folks... Here we have the S-shaped beam, look how violent that crash must've been. In the middle we have a larger piece with an image from the scene of firefighters projected onto it. Next we have a cross-shaped piece that some of the resuers found religious significance in. Over here we have...."
Where's the problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by fearandloathing, posted 08-19-2011 1:33 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 11:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 368 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2011 12:49 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 357 of 479 (629952)
08-21-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by New Cat's Eye
08-21-2011 11:07 AM


Re: "Secular Purpose"...........?
To be honest it doesn't bother me in this depiction, but that's just me. If it had been placed at say the main entrance by itself then it would bother me.
I still have no idea of how it will finally be displayed, if this depiction is how it will be then I don't see no problem with it.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2011 11:07 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 358 of 479 (629955)
08-21-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Nuggin
08-21-2011 8:01 AM


Re: Enough!
I don't give a flyin flip how the christians spin their fabled ghosts into this scene or why. I don't give a flyin flip whether you or I or anyone else thinks this thing is a religious symbol, a letter "T" or a useless piece of junk like any other rubble in the museum. I don't give a flyin flip if there is any "secular" or "religious" attachment to this thing or not.
The only thing that matters is the history.
Whether anyone cares to acknowledge it or not for whatever personal reasons they may have or not, this Cross had a unique role as a religious symbol at ground zero during the recovery. Which means it had a unique role at ground zero, period.
This thing was found unaltered in its present condition as a piece of debris on site. It was adopted as a religious symbol on site. And don't try to give me any of this BS about how many or how few believed in it or not because that does not change its history. It was a worship station on site. It was a shrine to the fallen on site. No other such artifact existed on site. No other such artifact served this purpose on site. It had a unique meaning on site that no other landmark had on site. These are facts.
I don't give a flyin flip that it offends your religious sensibilities. No amount of revisionist BS is going to change the facts of this item's direct historical ties to the site, the recovery effort and the 9/11 disaster in total.
You can disagree with this view. That's fine. But if you continue to ask me, like Rrhain does in his highly repetitive attempts to bully and intimidate, then you will get the same answers again.
Edited by AZPaul3, : Proper tense
Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Nuggin, posted 08-21-2011 8:01 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Nuggin, posted 08-21-2011 1:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 369 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2011 12:59 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 359 of 479 (629960)
08-21-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by AZPaul3
08-21-2011 12:08 PM


Re: Enough!
Whether anyone cares to acknowledge it or not for whatever personal reasons they may have or not, this Cross had a unique role as a religious symbol at ground zero during the recovery. Which means it had a unique role at ground zero, period.
The Koran had a LARGER role as a religious symbol and _motivation_ for the attack. Are they including a Koran in the museum?
Nope. Why not?
Because some people would say it's in bad taste to glorify a religious symbol with such negative associations with the attack.
Well, guess what? The cross also has majorly negative associations, as a cause of the attack and as a symbol that the God of the terrorists couldn't give a crap about saving lives.
No other such artifact existed on site. No other such artifact served this purpose on site. It had a unique meaning on site that no other landmark had on site. These are facts.
Good luck proving that there were no other objects on the site than any one of any religion found significant.
Again, just because Christians find something important doesn't mean that all other religious groups vanish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 12:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 2:16 PM Nuggin has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8656
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 360 of 479 (629963)
08-21-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Nuggin
08-21-2011 1:43 PM


Re: Enough!
The Koran had a LARGER role as a religious symbol and _motivation_ for the attack. Are they including a Koran in the museum?
Nope. Why not?
Did someone find a Koran on site? Did some Koran act as a landmark recognizable to all those working on the site?
The cross also has majorly negative associations, as a cause of the attack and as a symbol that the God of the terrorists couldn't give a crap about saving lives.
That is your view of the Cross based upon your personal religious beliefs. Something I share, by the way.
But, this does not alter the historical facts of what was on site. Whether the connotations attached are good or bad means nothing. Only the facts of the history of the item matter.
Good luck proving that there were no other objects on the site than any one of any religion found significant.
Prove a negative? Is that the best intellectual argument you can make?
Do you have any such artifact? If so then this as well should be considered for the museum, should it not?
Again, just because Christians find something important doesn't mean that all other religious groups vanish.
Oh, I agree. But what does this have to do with the unique role of this artifact on that site at that time? How does this alter the history? The article does not vanish just because we wish it would. The history is still there.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Nuggin, posted 08-21-2011 1:43 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Nuggin, posted 08-21-2011 2:54 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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