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Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Really? Rather than go back and read the thread to remind yourself what's being discussed, you post off topic cartoons? You said I lost the debate and I responded that I didn't know where I had lost it and then you replied with a desciption of the topic theme.
Christians are arguing that a piece of metal from the 9/11 site is magical because, unlike every other crossbeam in existence, this one is shaped like a T. Therefore they want to put it in a museum. False. Museum officials decided that the cross played a significant enough role in the rescue effort to be put into a museum showing the history of the event.
Atheists are pointing out that the Christians are selecting this particular piece of trash because they think it looks like the symbol of their religion. If that's the reason they want to include it in a museum which is not about their religion, they are in violation of church and state. And the atheists are wrong because the museum officials explained that they were not including the cross because of its religious symbolism.
Christians counter with "This magic T is special because it 'helped' people". Atheists asked for specifics. Christians told us "Well, it helped people because it's the letter T". Then that whole line of argument was repeated for 270 posts. And nowhere did the atheists make a good case for it not being included, so my argument for why it should be included has not been defeated.
At which point you apparently forgot what he been said, so I brought you back up to speed. But you claimed that I already lost and that hasn't been shown.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2522 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Museum officials decided that the cross played a significant enough role in the rescue effort to be put into a museum showing the history of the event. So, it's a "cross", not a piece of the building. Not a significant marker of some body. Not a rallying point. It's a _CROSS_. Done. You lose.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It's a _CROSS_. Done. You lose. Why?
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2522 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Why? A cross serves no informative, historical or specific information about 9/11 It's merely a symbol of one group who is retroactively claiming responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Putting it in the museum serves no purpose other than to insult people of other faiths.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
A cross serves no informative, historical or specific information about 9/11 Maybe not in general, but this specific cross does serve exactly that.
It's merely a symbol of one group who is retroactively claiming responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Americans. False, there's more to it than just being a symbol, as has been explained.
Putting it in the museum serves no purpose other than to insult people of other faiths. False, the museum officials are putting this cross in the museum as a historical artifact that tells the history of 9/11 because of the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks. None of your reasons for dissalowing this cross are correct/true...
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2522 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Museum officials decided that the cross played a significant enough role in the rescue effort to be put into a museum showing the history of the event. Do you understand that repeating the same l.i.e. doesn't make it true? This object is ONLY a symbol. As is evidenced by the fact that EVEN YOU admit that it only has value if mounted "in the proper Christian position" as opposed to any other orientation.
...because of the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks. The "role" is played was for Christians to imply that their God caused 9/11 to happen. That role is not something which this museum, or frankly any museum, should be glorifying.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Do you understand that repeating the same l.i.e. doesn't make it true? Calling something a lie doesn't make it false.
This object is ONLY a symbol. Repeating this lie doesn't make it true.
As is evidenced by the fact that EVEN YOU admit that it only has value if mounted "in the proper Christian position" as opposed to any other orientation. I haven't admitted that. In fact, all I've said is that repositioning it would be disrespectful to the people who were there getting help from it. Regardless, repositioning it would only cause it to loose some of its value, but not all of it.
The "role" is played was for Christians to imply that their God caused 9/11 to happen.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2522 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined:
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In fact, all I've said is that repositioning it would be disrespectful to the people who were there getting help from it. Show me one person that this object dug up.Show me one building that this object moved. This object didn't "help" anyone. The closest it comes to "help" is for the few Christians there to use it as a bragging point while thumbing their noses at the rest of the workers saying "See, our God did all this. F all of you! We win!" That's NOT helpful and it's CERTAINLY NOT sufficient to include it in a museum about a trajedy. If you want to open a 2nd museum called "See Christians be A-holes", then feel free. You can include this hunk of shit, as well as burning crosses put up by the KKK, and a few picks of the Indian taxi driver who was beaten to death by Christians unsatisfied with the death toll on 9/11. As for the rest of us, keep your filthy religion out of our public spaces.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Show me one person that this object dug up. Show me one building that this object moved. This object didn't "help" anyone. How dare you! If a guy is toiling through rubble trying to rescue people, finds comfort in a cross he's found, and says that it helped him, then you have no business saying it didn't.
The closest it comes to "help" is for the few Christians there to use it as a bragging point while thumbing their noses at the rest of the workers saying "See, our God did all this. F all of you! We win!" That's NOT helpful and it's CERTAINLY NOT sufficient to include it in a museum about a trajedy. If you want to open a 2nd museum called "See Christians be A-holes", then feel free. You can include this hunk of shit, as well as burning crosses put up by the KKK, and a few picks of the Indian taxi driver who was beaten to death by Christians unsatisfied with the death toll on 9/11. I'm not interested in your emotional hyperbole.
As for the rest of us, keep your filthy religion out of our public spaces. Nope, piss off. Its in the museum so tough titties.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
The Smithsonian removed an offensive depiction of the cross...it offended catholics.
quote: Not exactly the same situation, but it seems somewhat relevant as to the disparity involving what is an acceptable use of a christian or any religious symbol. If the cross is shown in bad taste then Christians want it removed. Maybe they should realize the cross itself is offensive to others, therefore has no place in a public place regardless of whether it is shown in a positive or negative way. I am not sure I fully agree with the Smithsonian because it was a work of art...it seems they were trying to keep everyone happy...which might be the best way to handle it being it isn't a private museum.
source Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2522 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Show me one person that this object dug up. Show me one building that this object moved. This object didn't "help" anyone. How dare you! You are the one making the extraordinary claim that this object some how took action and saved people's lives. That this object did some actual digging. That this object grabbed a mic and said "There is a body over under that piece of concrete. Look, where I am pointing". None of those things ACTUALLY happened. Instead, the "help" this object provided was that SOME rescuers were religious people who took pride in the destruction their God had wrought upon the people of NYC and saw this piece of garbage as evidence that their God killed 3,000 people. Good for them! Tell them to take that shit to some museum that glorifies that sort of shit.
Its in the museum so tough titties. Not for long. You religions fucktards have spent too much time thumbing your nose at the Constitution. We're starting to fight back, to actually DEFEND America instead of crapping all over it. And all we can hear from you guys is crying about how "hard it is to be a Christian". Boo fucking hoo. If you want to brag about killing 3000 Americans, be a fucking man, and OWN UP TO THAT SHIT. Just trying to sneak that bullshit into a museum is pathetic.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I intended for Message 280 to be a response to you, just want to know how you feel about this....
source I am a moron and hit general reply. Is it ok to remove an offensive depiction of the cross?"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
The Smithsonian removed an offensive depiction of the cross...it offended catholics. Now that is ridiculous. The art had merit in the eyes of the Smithsonian's experts. They should have kept the display and let Donohue go pound sand. And this is quite relevant to this WTC situation. Do the experts in the field see artistic value in the Smithsonian piece? Yes. Should it be displayed? Yes. Do the experts in the field see historical value in the WTC Cross? Yes. Should it be displayed? Yes. Everyone gets so wrapped up in the religion, pro and con. It does not matter. The only thing that matters is the artistic or historical merit the experts see in the piece.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
As I said... I am not sure I agree with the Smithsonian. I understand making compromises in order to keep the peace, this is all the AA asked for, removal or a compromise that wouldn't exclude anyone. Seems reasonable to me, though I tend to lean more towards the thought that the Smithsonian made a poor choice in order to keep the peace... Politics I am sure.
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You are the one making the extraordinary claim that this object some how took action and saved people's lives. That this object did some actual digging. That this object grabbed a mic and said "There is a body over under that piece of concrete. Look, where I am pointing". But of couse I said nothing of the sort. Making up ridiculous strawmen makes you look pathetic.
Instead, the "help" this object provided was that SOME rescuers were religious people who took pride in the destruction their God had wrought upon the people of NYC and saw this piece of garbage as evidence that their God killed 3,000 people. But of course this is just some more bullshit that you made up. Again, I'm not interested in your emotional hyperbole.
Not for long. We'll see. Do we have any indication that its removal is even being considered?
You religions fucktards have spent too much time thumbing your nose at the Constitution. We're starting to fight back, to actually DEFEND America instead of crapping all over it. And all we can hear from you guys is crying about how "hard it is to be a Christian". Boo fucking hoo. If you want to brag about killing 3000 Americans, be a fucking man, and OWN UP TO THAT SHIT. Your anti-religion fervorous hatred is exposing your bigoted attitude.
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