Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,911 Year: 4,168/9,624 Month: 1,039/974 Week: 366/286 Day: 9/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Going to hell? Fringe lunatics
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 8 of 56 (611380)
04-07-2011 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-07-2011 6:53 PM


This has always rather bugged me.
You can be a serial child rapist and murderer, you can be Hitler, literally, and if you "believe on Jesus Christ" you get into heaven.
And Ghandi burns, because he wasn't a Christian.
It amuses me when Christians say that "without God, there would be total anarchy, murder, rape, theft, the works." Then they create a "salvation by faith" doctrine that means it literally does not matter one bit what one does on Earth - all you have to do is believe the right thing, and you get heaven regardless of any other crimes, and if you don;t, you get to burn regardless of any good you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-07-2011 6:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 04-07-2011 8:22 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 21 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:22 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 37 of 56 (611512)
04-08-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
04-07-2011 8:22 PM


I have never met a person that is following Jesus who would do any of those things. Jesus didn't do any of them.
A christian is a person living a life like Christ lived.
Anybody that claims to be a christian and is not living a life like Christ did is a liar and the truth is not in him/her.
The passage you quoted said absolutely nothing about behavior.
It specifically said that anyone who "believes on" Jesus gets into heaven, and anyone who doesn't gets to burn.
The doctrine of salvation by faith has long supported the idea that anyone can get into Heaven regardless of past sins, that being the entire point. We;re all supposed to be sinful, right from the start; a murderer is as bad as a thief is as bad as a liar is as bad as everybody else because of Original Sin, which is a hereditary condition. Salvation is then attained for everyone by the "full free pardon" you so love to refer to, the human sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth paying the sentence of death for everyone past, present, and future, with the only caveat being that, bizarrely, you have to "believe on him" to receive it.
Works don't matter - the point of the Salvation by Faith doctrine is that it directly contradicts the competing Salvation by Works doctrine that held some popularity previously. If Hannibal Lector converted to Christianity and "believed on" Jesus, he gets into heaven. If Ghandi dies without accepting Jesus, he burns. Simple as that.
The logical endpoint of this doctrine is that total hedonism is just fine; the Commandments are irrelevant, morality doesn't matter, all that's required is that you "believe on" Jesus and you get to go to heaven. If you don't believe, whether you're as bad as Hitler or as good as Ghandi, you burn the same either way.
Christian apologists like to try to combine the two doctrines using a variety of rationalizations. The most common perhaps is the No True Scotsman fallacy that you use - "nobody who believes on Jesus would do things like that." You then exclude people who would otherwise be saved under the Salvation by Faith doctrine by saying that they must not have really believed, they weren't really Christians, etc.
Other tactics have included the doctrine of predestination - you're either saved or not before you were even born, and you can tell who is saved by their works, even though free will has nothing to do with it. This one has fallen rather out of favor.
The point remains, however, that Salvation by Faith means that works don;t matter. You can't get into heaven by being good - everybody burns, that's the default state thanks to Original Sin, from charity workers and human rights activists to mass murderers and rapists. You get into heaven by believing on Jesus, and the "full free pardon" belief grants you covers all sins, and functions as a total "get out of hell free" card. A rapist and murderer who believes gets into heaven along with Mother Theresa, just like the rapist and murderer who doesn't believe burns just like Ghandi.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 04-07-2011 8:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 04-10-2011 1:59 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024