basic reading of genesis 1:1

ICANT writes:Not really, Hitpael, and Hufal does not have an infinitive.

Then present the supporting argumentation.

I was using an Ancient Biblical Hebrew verb chart.But my new program that gives some 270 parseings of ברא also disagrees with me. They give the Hifil infinitive as: לְהַבְרִיא

Are you telling me if I don't comprehend English as you do I can not understand Ancient Biblical Hebrew?

Both are clauses and have verbs and a subject.
Independent stands alone and subordinate (dependent) can't stand alone.In English 'Be' is a verb that can be used to denote was, were, been, being, am, are, and is. Be is the action of existing in some tense.In English 'Do' is a verb that can be used to denote did, done, doing, and does. Do is the result of action in some tense.They can both exist in any tense.

But what does this have to do with Ancient Biblical Hebrew?

arachnophilia writes:clearly, that has a to- prefix.

ICANT writes:You can find temporal infinitive constructs in:Genesis 2:4 בהבראם
Genesis 17:24 בהמלו
Genesis 17:25 בהמלו
Genesis 19:29 בהפך בשחת
Genesis 19:33 בשכבה ובקומה
Genesis 19:35 בשכבה ובקומה
Genesis 19:17 כהוציאם

arachnophilia writes:i was asking you about the specific cases you used, and the temporal relationship between your verbs.

arachnophilia writes:because you don't see how grammar can be more complicated to explain than it is to use.

I know enough to know that English is the most complicated language ever invented.

Ancient Biblical Hebrew was a language of simple people of which most could not match our kindergardners, much less a fifth grader.

Jon writes: or even give us some sense of the standard by which you're judging linguistic complexity.

Jon writes:The people of the ancient world were anything but simple. If you spend time with children, and compare what they know to what was known by the ancients, you will see that there is simply no comparison; few kindergartners, for example, have even a superficial grasp of farming and agricultureeven most modern farmers, dependent on their machinery and technology, could not match wits with the ancients' intimate knowledge of crop growing.

ICANT writes:Not according to the bare link you gave me. According to it the lamed is the most used temporal infinitive construct used in the Hebrew language.

It says, "Temporal clauses with ל can mark a point in time or an extent in time".

All three of my textbooks say the temporal infinitive construct will have a ב or a כ prefix. Like the examples I gave in Message 142.

Make up your mind. Do you want to talk about Hebrew or English?

I know enough to know that English is the most complicated language ever invented.

I also know that so called scholars have complicated the Ancient Biblical Hebrew language trying to make it an English language with all the parts and pieces of English.

Ancient Biblical Hebrew was a language of simple people of which most could not match our kindergardners, much less a fifth grader.

Paul covered the situation when he said: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

The proficiency of our high school grads when compared to those of developed nations.

Have you ever read a copy of the original KJV Bible?

Languages change over time, and they don't get simpler.

But since you mentioned farming if they were so brilliant why didn't they invent tractors?

I was raised on a farm in the 1940's when we plowed with mules and horses. We averaged 20 bushels of corn per acre. We got tractors in 1949 and fertilizer became available then we could produce 40 bushels of corn per acre. We could also farm 4 times the amount of land.Today it is possible to produce 300 bushels of corn per acre.

How complex was the language spoken by the American Indian when the pilgrams came to America?

Private message this to me as we are off topic here.

ICANT writes:I have asked for the uses of ברא in the Torah and no list has been presented. I will present them here. If I overlook any please present them.

Genesis 1:1 בָּרָא
Kal perfect 3pms completed action translation 'created'.

Genesis 2:4 bothers me because according to the rules it is a temporal infinitive construct as it has the בְּ prefix along with the definite article. The problem arises as it has a plural ending to match the object.Will search for more clarification.

Genesis 5:1 בְּרֹאAccording to modern Hebrew with these markings this would be a Piel infinitive noun with a P3M suffix.These vowel pointings were added by the Masoretes between 700 AD and 1000 AD.But the Ancient Hebrew did not have vowels as consonants were used.According to the Ancient Hebrew it would be Kal perfect 3mp, completed action.

The only one who translated it as an infinitive noun was Young in the YNG literal translation.

There was several who translated it as a temporal infinitive construct which would be incorrect, according to the vowel pointings.

Genesis 5:2 בְּרָאָם is listed by modern Hebrew as Past P3M suffix Kal ms3 Pronominal Suffix.There is no such thing as past tense in Ancient Biblical Hebrew.

In Ancient Hebrew it would be a Kal mp3 verb of completed action.Translation 'He created them'.

Translation 'He created them'. Definite article would preceed day.

Ancient Biblical Hebrew did not have tenses as Modern Hebrew does. Verbs were either perfect, completed action or imperfect, imcomplete action.

Ancient Biblical Hebrew did not have vowels as invented by the Masoretes.

Jon writes: or even give us some sense of the standard by which you're judging linguistic complexity.

ICANT writes:The proficiency of our high school grads when compared to those of developed nations.

I think I was talking about their use of language.Have you ever read a copy of the original KJV Bible? Languages change over time, and they don't get simpler.

Jon writes:{Crappy content hidden - Adminnemooseus}

Since all languages are meant to solve the same problem amongst the same critters it would seem logical to conclude that all languages are equally complex; and this, of course, is exactly the case. Perhaps you could provide some evidence that shows English to be the most complicated language ever 'invented', or even give us some sense of the standard by which you're judging linguistic complexity.

The people of the ancient world were anything but simple. If you spend time with children, and compare what they know to what was known by the ancients, you will see that there is simply no comparison; few kindergartners, for example, have even a superficial grasp of farming and agriculture...

arachnophilia writes:the truly sad part about this is that the torah is one of the simpler works.

it is the hardest to learn.

this is mostly because we don't really have good consistent rules about things ...

however, the difference between using and explaining grammar is probably most apparent in children. you'll find that most elementary school grammar textbooks spend many chapters explaining certain concepts, and the students spend months learning certain concepts, most of which they undoubtedly already use.

ICANT doesn't seem to comprehend this disparity.

Check an original KJV Bible and compare it to the KJV Bible used today. Both are English but there is a lot of difference in them.

ICANT writes:Glad to see you admit that the Torah was a simpler work.
Just remember I haven't been talking about the rest of the OT only the Torah.And the Torah was written some 500 years prior to the Psalms.

Check an original KJV Bible and compare it to the KJV Bible used today. Both are English but there is a lot of difference in them.

ICANT writes: Check an original KJV Bible and compare it to the KJV Bible used today. Both are English but there is a lot of difference in them.God Bless,

1611 KJV Genesis 1 writes:1 In the beginning God created the Heauen, and the Earth.2 And the earth was without forme, and voyd, and darkenesse was vpon the face of the deepe: and the Spirit of God mooued vpon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God diuided the light from the darkenesse.5 And God called the light, Day, and the darknesse he called Night: and the euening and the morning were the first day.6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters: and let it diuide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament; and diuided the waters, which were vnder the firmament, from the waters, which were aboue the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament, Heauen: and the euening and the morning were the second day.9 And God said, Let the waters vnder the heauen be gathered together vnto one place, and let the dry land appeare: and it was so.10 And God called the drie land, Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called hee, Seas: and God saw that it was good.11 And God said, Let the Earth bring foorth grasse, the herbe yeelding seed, and the fruit tree, yeelding fruit after his kinde, whose seed is in it selfe, vpon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought foorth grasse, and herbe yeelding seed after his kinde, and the tree yeelding fruit, whose seed was in it selfe, after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.13 And the euening and the morning were the third day.14 And God said, Let there bee lights in the firmament of the heauen, to diuide the day from the night: and let them be for signes and for seasons, and for dayes and yeeres.15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heauen, to giue light vpon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the starres also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heauen, to giue light vpon the earth:18 And to rule ouer the day, and ouer the night, and to diuide the light from the darkenesse: and God saw that it was good.19 And the euening and the morning were the fourth day.20 And God said, Let the waters bring foorth aboundantly the mouing creature that hath life, and foule that may flie aboue the earth in the open firmament of heauen.21 And God created great whales, and euery liuing creature that moueth, which the waters brought forth aboundantly after their kinde, and euery winged foule after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitfull, and multiply, and fill the waters in the Seas, and let foule multiply in the earth.23 And the euening and the morning were the fift day.24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the liuing creature after his kinde, cattell, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kinde: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kinde, and cattell after their kinde, and euery thing that creepeth vpon the earth, after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.26 And God said, Let vs make man in our Image, after our likenesse: and let them haue dominion ouer the fish of the sea, and ouer the foule of the aire, and ouer the cattell, and ouer all the earth, and ouer euery creeping thing that creepeth vpon the earth.27 So God created man in his owne Image, in the Image of God created hee him; male and female created hee them.28 And God blessed them, and God said vnto them, Be fruitfull, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and haue dominion ouer the fish of the sea, and ouer the foule of the aire, and ouer euery liuing thing that mooueth vpon the earth.29 And God said, Behold, I haue giuen you euery herbe bearing seede, which is vpon the face of all the earth, and euery tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yeelding seed, to you it shall be for meat:30 And to euery beast of the earth, and to euery foule of the aire, and to euery thing that creepeth vpon the earth, wherein there is life, I haue giuen euery greene herbe for meat: and it was so.31 And God saw euery thing that hee had made: and behold, it was very good. And the euening and the morning were the sixth day.

Current KJV Genesis 1 writes:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.