Meat Morality and Human/Animal/Alien Rights

If we were actually faced with aliens who were tempted to treat us as cattle but who were up for being persuaded otherwise on the basis of moral philosophy then I think we would have to resort to that sort of argument. I just hope we don't find out how convincing they would find that answer........ And I am putting the problem (as I see it) out there to see what others think. It seems we agree on the problem and (as unsatisfying as I find it) your answer seems our best bet of persuading those pesky aliens we are worthy of some moral consideration.

Exactly. And I personally have no issue accepting that. Yet we delude ourselves into thinking that we have a consistent rational basis for our morality. I think we need to realise that we are fooling ourselves in that respect to some extent. Yes sentience plays a part. But it isn't the whole story and we don't apply it consistently. Ah now that is the problem. I think we would consider the aliens immoral for treating us in this despicable way whilst being blind to our own inconsistent thinking on this with regard to our own treatment of other species. That is my point here really. Quite possibly. But where do we draw the line between specieistic self promotion and immorality? Is it OK for us to roughshod over all other species on Earth on the basis that they don't morally count in any way? Purely on the basis that it is natural for us to consider ourselves as intrinsically more important? Can we do whatever we want to other species or are they deserving of any moral consideration at all?

Just read this with the fixed link.

Indeed. And I too am a carnivore with similar attitudes to you regarding meat production and other species.But that is a reason. It is not an objective criteria for morality. Telling an advanced alien species that they should not treat us as we treat chimps or cows because we consider it evolutionarily unsatisfying for them to do so will not cut the alien mustard. It is not a consistent application of an objective criteria. Exactly. We advocate sentience as the defining factor and then completely contradict ourselves on an instinctive evolutionary bias towards fellow members of our own species regardless of sentience. Any rationally moral alien would eat us for breakfast on the basis of this argumentLiterally in the scenario I am talking about

You seem to be making the assumption that technologically and intellectually superior aliens will also be morally superior and make allowances for our morally primitive ways. Why do you think this assumption is justifiable? If ever I needed an excuse you have now given me one. Bring on the "Cookies and Cream"........

OK. So on the basis of what you have said we humans should also treat our fellow animals, especially those displaying a recognisable degree of sentience, with a bit more moral consideration if we want to consider ourselves as civilised or enlightened in the way you have described. At least that is the way things should progress. Right?This of course depends on us not eliminating either them or ourselves in the meantime..........

People do eat apes. We also experiment on them and generally treat them as unworthy of any moral consideration at all.So in the terms you have used either apes don't have any degree of sentience (which would seem to be untrue) or we are perhaps not as civilised as we might think.

Well that is basically my conclusion too. But I am not sure we would be quite so philosophical about it should that happen.I guess (to contradict myself somewhat) that my actual conclusion is that aliens should treat us with some moral consideration based on our level of sentience and that we should also treat other sentient animals with more moral consideration than we actually do. I just find it hard to get too worked up about our morally inconsistent treatment of animals for purely subjective reasons.The point of this thread is simply to point out that inconsistency really.

Very good actually. The second baby Straggler was born just over a couple of weeks ago now. Stress and drama as there inevitably always is with these things but all good in the end. How bizzarre! Well I have no idea. I have tried to look this up and cannot find anything on it. My guess is that this is not the case but then I would never have guessed it would be the case in the US either.

Hey speak for yourself!! Well I think that making ourselves gastronimaclly undesirable is more likely to work than a bout of moral philosophy. So you may well be onto something here.

You left out Buddha. Which rhymes nicely and is sort of relevant in the "all life has value" context we seem to be slipping down. I think that has to be the rational conclusion here. But like you I find it hard to get worked up about animal rights in general. Even though I think rationally I should be more morally concerned. Not just dinner. Consider experimentation for exanmple. The question of sentience as related to human infants, dementia ridden geriatrics and those suffering from other brain injuries or ailments remains. We are indisputably special pleading humanity not on the basis of sentience alone. Which, as I have said, is fine but does lead to some rationally inconsistent morality if we simultaneously cite sentience as our primary criteria. Are you talking about estate agents? Or snouty nosed rodents? Only one of those will get any moral considerataion from me You see I have indiscriminantly eaten various indistinct "bush meats" in Africa and I still find it hard to get upset by the thought I may have munched something as sentient as an ape. My only point here is that we are very inconsistent in our application of actualy caring despite our supposed rational moral criteria. Have you eaten rat? Or continual cnflict pushes technology to the point that we can leave our humble litle rock and venture off to lay waste to the rest of the universe like a swarm of marauding cosmic locusts.I like your outlook better (and think it more likely) but there is at least an argument to be made for thinking that the technologically advanced aliens under consideration here might be so advanced technologically out of the same sort of needs that all too often drive our own technological progress. Indeed.

Cuteness and anthromorphication definitely count for a lot. And yes we do sort of sometimes take some degree of sentience into account when it isn't too inconvenient. Pigs are quite intelligent creatures apparently. But that doesn't seem to help them much. Now hat is an interesting point. Is a degree of sentience that allows a sense of morality (even if applied inconsistently) what we could argue with those pesky man eating aliens seperates us from the animals we eat and generally treat without moral consideration?Have we found our get out clause? The general basis of morality is "Do unto others as you have them do unto you". On this basis we treat animals horrifically really. At a speciestic level that is basically what we would be asking those aliens to do despite the fact we ourselves do not. Cheers dude. I am friggin knackered.

Oh I know that I should feel worse about it and I wouldn't actively seek out such cullinary experiences for all the good reasons you point out. All of which I wholeheartedly agree with on a rational level. But at the same time I just don't feel that bad about the fact that I may well have done in the past. Rightly or wrongly it just doesn't cause me the same sort of emotional distress that I would imagine finding out I had eaten human meat might cause. We are just speciests at the end of the day. And I don't think it has that much to do with sentience whatever we often tell ourselves. I hope they have that too. In fact I hope that in years to come they tell me off in much the same way you are now. I know I know. The way we treat animals is pretty unjustifiable really. I think we can learn a lot more about ourselves from such studies than most are willing to recognise.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Well I like children. But I couldn't eat a whole one.

Cheers. This was the second. No more. I am too exhausted to be able to have an opinion on that at the moment. Drunken take-away food - Just tastes soooo good. Well now there is a side topic. If you had to be eaten what would you consider to be a suitable cullinary method of consumption? What method of being cooked best exemplifies your personality? Personally I think I would like to be curried.