Meat Morality and Human/Animal/Alien Rights

We only have the one example, Earth, to go by for this. However, like global symmetries in physics, we can make some reasonable assumptions, some axioms.The numbers involved just within this galaxy along with the known physics and chemistry gives us a high confidence level that there is life out there. Of this we are as certain as we can be without actually holding it in our hands. Sentient alien life we cannot be so sure of but for the sake of this thread we must take that as axiomatic.While evolution would change species to adapt to environmental change the real spur in evolution appears to be the arms race scenario. Even in autotrophs competition for resources can induce variation and complexity. The same must be true for any alien life from the most simple level onward. The axiom being that Evolution, mutation/Natural Selection/arms race, is location-invariant throughout life systems in the galaxy.This does not mean that alien life systems must produce sentient organisms but that any sentient beings that arise are the product of the cauldron of evolution. An evolved sentience on any world, even if the being is autotrophic (I like the thought of an animal that flays out leafy wings in the sun for lunch) cannot become a space-faring species without having acquired great knowledge about itself and the universe around it. This must include knowledge of its own evolution and the study of other species' evolution on its home world. The concepts of herbivore/carnivore cannot be foreign to them.An axiom on sentience. IMO a tell-tale of sentience is complex culture: language, art, complex social organization, science, music, sport, Douglas Adams, etc. As we have seen on this planet not all levels of sentience produce complex culture but any species that produces complex culture must be self-aware, intelligent beyond the level of instinct, creative, feeling as distinguished from sensory perception or thought. And again, my opinion, my incredulity if you will, is that no advanced space-faring sentience can have evolved without creating some attributes of complex culture or without the knowledge of recognizing complex culture. I submit, then, that any alien visitors in the OP must recognize the complex culture of our species and must conclude sentience. Within the constraints of the OP, whether they attach any importance to this is questionable and off-topic. IMHO their recognition of our sentience would be obvious.Again, my opinion only, with all the above I find it difficult to believe that some advanced space-faring society would not recognize and would not appreciate that our evolution, our way, though different from their own, is not without corollary in some of their home-world species. And that our way of farming animals, using them for medical testing and sustenance, hunting them for sport, though it may be disturbing in their world view, is not wrong but just different not requiring any justification. Further, I submit that the greater the level of intellect the greater the recognition and tolerance for different and the relativity of morality.Edited by AZPaul3, : syntax goof

Because the vast majority of individuals are considered sentient one of the defining attributes of our species is sentience. The young may not show the outward signs of individual sentience but we know that for the majority they will grow into the self-awareness we expect of a sentient being. It has become a matter of relative morality in society to not eat them. The same moral treatment is applied to those who have (seemingly) lost sentience due to illness or injury. We find strong moral reasons (empathic) to not eat them either.Over the past few decades there appears to be a growing awareness of the sentience in other species, especially apes, chimps and to some degree dolphins. We are not to the point as a species that we recognize a level of sentience in these requiring the same level of moral protection we apply to human. It may become so as we progress in enlightenment, whatever that is.Because of the imperatives of our evolution as omnivores coupled with the structure of the society we created, the mass farming of chicken, cow, corn and any other species where sentience is not only not recognized but cannot be reasonably (as a carnivore not a Buddhist) considered, holds no moral bar.As we have seen over the past few decades the humane treatment of what will eventually become dinner has begun to be considered, but the needs of those whom we recognize as obviously sentient (us, as a species, brain dead or not) will always take precedence for resources. If the humane treatment of chicken means no juicy fryer on the Sunday dinner table then our moral imperative will be to feed our children and forgo any qualms over the treatment of an obvious lower form of life. This is not a moral flaw. It is an evolutionary imperative.I am a carnivore. I will eat meat. It is my evolution. These days I do not have to go hunt the wild. I can pick it up in the grocery. There are some moral constraints to be sure (sentience being very big, no filet of human or chimp in the meat case) but how it got there is of secondary concern to it actually being there and available to satisfy my Maslowian need. By extension the same applies to using animals for medical and safety testing instead of sentient, soon to be sentient or used to be sentient humans.

Here is where we may disagree. Some super intelligent alien space-faring species will recognize, as most of us already do (outside the religious memes), that all morality is relative. They will have experienced, will know and will accept this. Further that our inconsistent application of moral values dealing with our own is due to youth and inexperience not out of any innate lack of future ability.Just as we recognize that children will eventually learn sharing and caring through empathy so too, imho, they will recognize we will/may eventually learn moral consistency through enlightened empathy on a species rather than individual basis.They will recognize a young sentient species bumbling and stumbling just beginning to find their way in the Universe. Though it is not beyond the realm of possibility I do think it very improbable that highly intellectual and knowledgeable alien species, having evolved in their own cauldron, knowing what sentience is and what it means, would be looking to add Filet of Human to their menu.Given the increasing percentage of us with sedentary lifestyles we would be too fatty for their alien diets anyway. Which leaves out Twinkies and Haagen- Dazs Chocolate ice cream too so we're safe there as well.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Again, we have only the one example of a sentient species to go by but I think we may be able to extrapolate some probabilities from this.First we start with the axiom that evolution is responsible for sentient species no matter where in our galaxy this may occur.On this planet we have seen that the life-eat-life arms race of evolution produced sentience. Not that sentience is a necessary result of evolution but that sentience arose here and the evolutionary arms race scenario is the most likely venue we have identified. Without the struggle in evolution we are hard pressed to see any alternate scenario where an accident of chemistry such as sentience could arise and develop to the extent it has here. I think we can reasonably extrapolate this probable venue to any and all sentient life in the galaxy, if any.Second we have seen the progression of sentient life from most primitive stone toolmaking to the Internet. Each step along the way involved larger and larger populations organized into societies from nomadic tribes, villages, city-states, nations to global (almost we're not quite there yet) with the attendant struggle for resources at each step.We cannot even imagine what an alien equivalent of a city-state might look like but one thing is for certain. A global population of cooperative sentient beings able to put up the resources needed to develop and create interstellar travel did not just poof up on any world overnight. Some kind of social evolution from smaller groups to larger populations had to occur.In going through this social evolution some moral enlightenment must also occur. The level of meme-sharing, tolerance for differences, cooperation and empathy for others within the society must increase in order for such a society to maintain itself at the larger and larger sizes. We have seen this in our own species' global development though not even close to the level necessary for putting up the resources necessary to colonize our own nearby moon let alone attempt something more ambitious.Third, interstellar spaceships are no small investment. First the level of scientific and technical knowledge necessary is enormous. A society must be conducive to the exploration and development of this knowledge. It must possess the resources, cooperative intellect and the moral attributes that allow discovery to this level. Second, actual construction, outfitting and manning (aliening?) of such a machine is, if our experience is any guide, even more daunting in the level of a societies resources required.The level of cooperation and tolerance, the moral attributes, necessary within a global society to accomplish such an effort must be at a very high level. A level we have not yet experienced and, imo, are very far from.Since I ended the above on a preposition I might as well end the message.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, buddha.From my moral perspective, yeah, we should give greater protections and respect to the semi-sentient (apes, chimps, dolphins).Where does one draw a line between semi-sentient and dumb-as-dinner?The European Union’s Treaty of Amsterdam (1997) declares animals are sentient beings.Rats? Sentient? ... pay full regard to the welfare of ... Rats? Right.But what can you expect from a bunch of foreign foreigners.My own feelings on sentience may be seen as restrictive and I’d be hard pressed to tell you what they are, except I know I will not eat something sentient so my definition will not include chicken, cows, pigs, sheep, an occasional alligator, snake, quail, cumquats and ... and ... and.In sum, where one draws the line is a moral question I cannot even answer for myself. But it definitely does not include rats. My Crystal Ball is actually made of an acrylic polymer so it’s a bit fuzzy around the edges and somewhat cloudy in the middle.I wouldn’t go so far as to say we will all be Buddhist, and frankly I wouldn’t say we have much choice in our moral progression. As our species moves towards one global community, which seems to be the direction all our history has been driven, our moral view must become more tolerant and empathic as well.As you noted, if we destroy everything then you can ignore this missive.Edited by AZPaul3, : For Dad Straggler.

Are you asserting that morality is objective?If so, by what criteria?

So there is a new Straggler Junior, or Juniorette, on the planet? Congratulations!You have now become officially selected for by Natural Selection and have fulfilled your evolutionary function.You can die now.Or not, if you want. No I didn't. Both and lawyers. In practicing her culinary arts I think I've come very close, but, no, not that I'm aware. But, then again, I can not be certain. True but I sure hope not. I would not like to think I would do well in a Barnaise.Congrats, Dad.Edited by AZPaul3, : 'cuz