Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   answersincreation.org (Literal Genesis AND Old Earth Creationism?)
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 105 (547298)
02-17-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
05-11-2005 2:08 PM


You're close
I am perturbed, flabbergasted, and disturbed by the continuing efforts of ignorant, misguided, and scripturally incorrect religious people to foist their misconceptions, under the guise of ‘scientific theories’ (creationism, intelligent design, etc.) upon the educational system. In addition to the obvious damage and hindrance to our educational curricula, these attempts are a huge misrepresentation of spiritual reality and Biblical truth; and are a tremendous disservice to God and His interests concerning the human race. Please objectively consider the enclosed information. May it finally put to rest the ‘red herring’ of an evolution/Genesis conflict. Should you find it to be of value, feel free to disseminate it as far and wide as you wish.
The validity of evolution would not, in the slightest degree, diminish the evidential necessity of the existence of God, nor would it preclude the validity of divine creation.
Evolutionists for nonscientific reasons have erroneously discarded the Genesis account and, equally erroneously, religionists have discarded evolution as being contradictory to a Genesis account.
Now it is time to logically examine the merits and foibles of the "pro-Creation" argument.
For we are told that in the beginning God created (bara) the heaven and the earth; but the Scriptures never affirm that He did this in the six days. The work of those days was, as we shall presently see, quite a different thing from original creation: they were times of restoration, and the word asah is generally used in connection with them.
Now asah signifies to make, fashion, or prepare out of existing material; as, for instance, to build a ship, erect a house, or prepare a meal.139
To promote the literality of the six days of restoration makes equally as much sense as the Roman Catholic Church's defense of the earth as the center of the universe in the time of Copernicus. It is theologically incorrect to think that the 6 days were literal 24-hour days, since time elements (lights) were not assigned until the 4th day. The damage done by such misguided, and scripturally mistaken believers, in making Christians appear to be ignorant and illogical people, has been inestimable. What would cause some of the better scientific minds of the last century to illogically jump to conclusions in a frenzied effort to discredit the Bible in general and Genesis in particular? What would cause religious people to feel compelled to attack evolution as if they were defending the Faith? The answer to these questions is obvious if we rephrase them with the word who instead of what. Who has always endeavored to cause the human race to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel? None other than our most subtle enemy, Satan.
If the Bible is the Word of God, then science cannot help but substantiate its validity- there should be no actual conflict between the two. The paramount question, for both "evolutionists" and "Creationists," should be: "Do evolution and Genesis concur?" In other words, is Genesis (particularly Chapters One and Two) an account of the evolutionary process, as we understand it?
There are six specific categories of life formed in the six?day account: 1. Plants in the sea, 2. Vegetation (plants and trees) on the land, 3. Life (fish) in the sea, 4. Birds over the earth, 5. Life (cattle, etc.) on the earth, 6. Man.
The order of their listing in the six?day account is in the same specific chronological order of appearance determined by scientifically derived (evolutionary) evidence:
1. Sea-plants: Pre?Cambrian 531 million B.C.
2. Land vegetation: Mid?Silurian 365?380 million B.C.
3. Aquatic life: Devonian 255?316 million B.C.
4. Birds: Jurassic 131 million B.C.
5. Land life: Paleocene Epoch 50?60 million B.C.
6. Man: Late Tertiary Period 1?3 million B.C.
Do you really believe that this is coincidental? How did Moses know the correct order when he wrote Genesis thousands of years ago, long before the rise of the scientific methods that have objectively verified the Genesis account? The mathematical odds against this being coincidental are 720 to 1; in other words, 720 to 1 that this account is divinely inspired, since divine inspiration is the only alternative to coincidence. Truly the Bible is the inspired Word of God!
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added a bunch of blank lines between paragraphs. The software here does not recognise paragraph indentations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-11-2005 2:08 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-19-2010 11:40 PM achristian1985 has replied
 Message 66 by Coragyps, posted 02-20-2010 10:03 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 105 (547299)
02-17-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
05-11-2005 2:08 PM


Theistic Evolutionism!!! Free Will, human spirit
What evolved characteristic was reached in man that differentiated him from the other creatures? Both man and all other creatures have souls- what difference is there between man's soul and the souls of animals? Only man has a free will. Animals must choose either according to rational thought processes (mind) or according to instinct (emotions). The less developed an animal's brain is, the more instinctual is its behavior. Only man has a will that is free and can choose according to neither of these. God would give man a spiritual existence only if man is responsible for his actions, and man could not be held responsible for his actions unless he has a free will.
Does the scientific evidence verify this hypothesis?
Free will is inevitably associated with intelligence. To do something willful, after all, you have to understand the existence of alternatives and choices among them, and these are attributes of intelligence. 153
The lower animals differ from man solely in his almost infinitely larger power of associating together the most diversified sounds and ideas; and this obviously depends on the high development of his mental powers. 154
We can only judge by the circumstance under which actions are performed, whether they are due to instinct, or to reason, or to the mere association of ideas: this latter principle, however, is intimately connected with reason.155
If we look back to an extremely remote epoch, before man had arrived at the dignity of manhood, he would have been guided more by instinct and less by reason than are the lowest savages at the present time. 156
... yet it is not improbable that there is a certain amount of interference between the development of free intelligence and of instinct . . . 157
The attainment of a free will is dependent on the attainment of a certain level of intelligence, and the greater the level of intelligence the less the influence of instinct (emotion). This is why the mind is the leading part of the soul, a further verification of Scripture by science.
The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable- namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and fillial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. 158
Most of the evolution of human behavior is based upon the ability to symbol, which in turn is a product of neuroanatomical evolution. During primate evolution the cerebral cortex increased in size (Chapter 20). The major trend, which we have repeatedly emphasized, was the development and elaboration of special senses and the expansion of those centers of' the brain, particularly in the cortex, concerned with conscious control over complex behavior and voluntary control over the muscles. Therefore it is believed that areas of association (areas receiving and sorting complex sensory impressions) and areas of control over voluntary actions have increased in size.159
The wide range of intelligence present among mammals suggests that increased intelligence must be the result of potent selection pressure. ... Brain size certainly is related to the evolution of intelligence.... but the critical question, discussed in Chapters 9 and 21, cannot be answered by examining the gross size of the brain.160
Yet, although elephants and whales are relatively intelligent, it is quite clear that they are far less intelligent than human beings, and may well be less intelligent than the chimpanzee and gorilla. How may this be squared with the superhuman size of their brains? ... The brain is not merely an organ of intelligence; it is also the medium through which the physical aspects of the body are organized and controlled. If the physical size of the body is great, enough of the brain is occupied with the physical to allow little for the purely intellectual.161
The functional meaning of a trend to a larger cranial capacity is not as well understood as is sometimes thought.
Probably more significant than absolute cranial capacity is the relationship between brain size and body weight. 162
Yet there are organisms in which the brain body ratio is actually more favorable than in a human being. This is true for some of the smaller monkeys and for some of the hummingbirds. In some monkeys the ratio is as great as 1:17.5. Here, though, the absolute mass of a brain is too small to carry much of an intellectual load.
The human being strikes a happy medium. The human brain is large enough to allow for high intelligence; and the human body is small enough to allow the brain space for intellectual endeavor.
Yet even here the human being does not stand alone. ...
What of the dolphin and porpoises, which are pygmy relatives of the gigantic whales? Some of these are no more massive than human beings and yet have brains that are larger than the human brain (with weights up to 1,700 grams, or 3 3/4 pounds) and more extensively convoluted.
It is not safe to say from this alone that the dolphin is more intelligent than the human being, because there is the question of the internal organization of the brain. The dolphin's brain may be organized for predominantly nonintellectual purposes. 163
But when we are comparing modern Homo sapiens with presapiens hominids, relative brain sizes can mask enormous biological differences, as we implied earlier. During the past few million years human brains have enlarged, but they must have increased in internal complexity, too. This is what really separates us from the brain of 1470 (a fossil skull)."... These examples emphasize that it is the internal organization that is most important in determining the scale of wit and intellect.164
Jerison has proposed a theory ... based on estimates of body weight and brain volume. From the estimates he calculates the total number of neurons associated with the body weight and the number of neurons associated with the adaptive capacity of the animal are then calculated. The calculation that is important here is the one that gives an estimate of the adaptive capacity of the animal (Table 21.1)....
The quantities in Table 21.1 imply that the number of adaptive neurons has increased markedly in hominid evolution.... Yet we must remember that astonishingly rapid advances and changes in culture took place after the 8.5-billion neuron level (Homo sapiens) was achieved. Perhaps there was a minimum number of these neurons associated with adaptive capacity necessary for great diversity and elaboration of cultural artifacts. 165
The attainment of free will is dependent on the attainment of a certain level of intelligence. Intelligence requires not only a minimum gross brain size but also a low brain?to?body ratio and a high level of "adaptive capacity" neurons. Only Homo sapiens (modern man) meets all three of these requirements.
Amongst the vertebrate the degree of intellect and an approach in structure to man clearly come into play.... If we take as the standard of high organization, the amount of differentiation and specialization of' the several organs in each being when adult (and this will include the advancement of' the brain for intellectual purposes), natural selection clearly leads towards this standard . . . 166
It is, therefore, highly probable that with mankind the intellectual faculties have been mainly and gradually perfected through natural selection.167
The evolution of intelligence was a consequence of the process of natural selection. Can we thus bring this process under the scrutiny of the physical sciences?
In this chapter we have tried to show that the logical extensions of Mendelian genetics allow us to view evolution as changes in gene frequencies. New alleles are introduced by mutation; gene frequencies are altered by natural selection....
Evolution occurs when new genetic traits appear in a population by means of mutation and when the survival and increase or the elimination of alleles results from natural selection.168
A mutation is a change in the material that carries the genetic information such that an inherited variation in a genetically controlled trait results. New traits enter a population by mutation. It is the only way a wholly new characteristic can begin to develop in an evolutionary line.169
New traits, new genes, are introduced into human populations by mutation. A mutation is a change in the basic genetic material that produces a new, inherited, phenotypic trait. 170
It was by the process of natural selection, acting on the trait of increasing cranial capacity (and complexity) produced by genetic mutation, that man evolved with an increasing mental ability leading to intelligence sufficient to have a free will. Eventually, a mutation occurred that would, when expressed, reach the point at which man's intellectual powers gave him a free will.
It is further known that mutations, in almost every case, are recessive rather than dominant. They are not expressed when paired with a normal gene, which is the dominant one. 171
A dominant mutant gene will usually be quickly eliminated, since we assume any mutation is apt to upset the dynamic equilibrium an organism has achieved with the environment. A recessive mutant gene, on the other hand, may stay "hidden" in the population. It will be eliminated only when it occurs in a homozygote. In a sense it hides phenotypically unexpressed until such a time as expression does not lead to elimination. 172
First, it is not safe to assume that the trait is completely recessive. We now know that many genes once considered recessive actually have some effect in the heterozygous state. If such a gene affords even a very slight selective advantage to heterozygotes, this advantage will maintain the gene in the population. 173
As we said, if a genetic mutation in an individual is particularly advantageous, then it is that individual's genes that will increasingly form the genetic stock of future generations of its particular species. 174
This recessive mutation was spreading itself through the pre-Adamic population as a heterozygote, that is, it was paired with a dominant gene of the pre-mutation variety. The selective advantage of the mutation ensured such a spreading. Inevitably, two individuals with such heterozygous genes mated and produced the first offspring with both genes being of the recessive mutant variety. When this offspring reached maturity, he was the first one of his species whose intelligence was of a degree sufficient for him to have a free will. This offspring was Adam; and he then received a spirit with which, by the exercise of his free will, he could choose to receive God Himself into this new part of him and thus express God. It was at this point in his evolution that man became a conscious being. But this incurs a problem: Adam was unique. If Adam mated with others of the pre?Adamic population, there would be a fifty percent chance that his offspring would be heterozygous and consequently would not have free will, while having a spirit. Thus all of Adam's immediate offspring must be homozygous for this trait, for him to truly be the "first man" of the Adamic race of man. Therefore, Adam must have a mate who is also homozygous for the same genetic trait. But Adam alone was homozygous for this trait.
How did God solve this problem?
Consanguinity in individual pedigrees may not be undesirable. 175
Human populations are not random mating populations. Inbreeding occurs, and the more inbreeding the more often individuals homozygous for a recessive trait will appear. In other words when inbreeding occurs the likelihood increases that a mutant recessive gene will appear in the homozygous state. 176
But when inbreeding occurs ... mutations are matched in increasingly higher proportions the closer the relationship of the parents become.177
Homo sapiens has 46 chromosomes; 44 are called autosomes, and 2 are called sex-determining chromosomes. Chromosomes occur in pairs, man has 22 pairs of autosomes and 1 pair of sex chromosomes....
The sex chromosomes are named, by convention, the X?chromosome and the Y-chromosome. Normal human males have 1 X?chromosome and 1 Y?chromosome; normal females have 2 X?chromosomes. 178
And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helpmeet for him.... And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, builded he into a woman and brought her unto the man. And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Gen. 2:18, 21?23)
It is possible to clone a woman from a man. However, it is not possible to clone a man from a woman. God cloned Eve from Adam so that the required trait would be retained by Adam's offspring. There are other relevant differences between men and women that are directly attributable to the genetic difference (sex chromosomes) between men and women that are important in spiritual matters (see Appendix IX).
Edited by achristian1985, : Paste put a ? instead of - in second sentence
Edited by achristian1985, : pieces of other texts (smilies, etc.) somehow got mixed in,making reading harder.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added a bunch of blank lines between paragraphs. The software here does not recognise paragraph indentations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-11-2005 2:08 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-20-2010 12:45 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 105 (547612)
02-20-2010 6:00 PM


That's true, although cloning (used for lack of a better term: duplication except for Y chromosome is more precise) would produce the closest match. The mating with others of their generation answers the question that W. J. Bryan could not: "Who was Cain's wife?"

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-20-2010 6:24 PM achristian1985 has replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 105 (547613)
02-20-2010 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Adminnemooseus
02-19-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Let us make this the topic to respond to achristian1985
My apologies to every member of this website. Ignorance of the law or its interpretation is no excuse. In future, my posts will be shorter, more precise and relevent. Now, did I see posts mentioning websites w/o invoking administrative wrath? If so, http://www.amessageforthehumanrace.org

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-19-2010 11:40 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 105 (547625)
02-20-2010 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
02-20-2010 6:24 PM


Divine motivation precludes random chance. (Einstein: "God doesn't shoot craps with the universe?"
Recessive matching not so detrimental as thought in short-term relationships. J ust don't encourage your kids to keep marrying their cousins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-20-2010 6:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-21-2010 12:38 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 105 (547627)
02-20-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
02-20-2010 6:24 PM


Think of the children
Got 6 billion mirrors?
I'm OK, You're OK. And ignore what the newspaper says!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-20-2010 6:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 105 (547634)
02-20-2010 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Adminnemooseus
02-19-2010 11:40 PM


info links, please
Fact: there is only one perfect man in this universe and it is definitely NOT me!
My excerpt concerning the chronological ordering in the Genesis 6-day account was written 30 years ago, footnoted from a reputable Biology textbook. I may have erred in assuming that the scientific opinion concerning the chronological ordering of 6 diverse life forms (pretty basic) hadn't changed. So please refer me to some links that DIRECTLY and succinctly cover this specific area. My thanks and appreciation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-19-2010 11:40 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Granny Magda, posted 02-20-2010 10:44 PM achristian1985 has not replied
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-21-2010 12:40 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 105 (547635)
02-20-2010 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Adminnemooseus
02-20-2010 7:16 PM


Re: Topic abandonment alert!
Yep. Sorry. Effect of recidistict recessive traits/ inbreeding is more under Fall of man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-20-2010 7:16 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Coyote, posted 02-20-2010 10:03 PM achristian1985 has replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 105 (547771)
02-22-2010 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Coyote
02-20-2010 10:03 PM


recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Canus Lobo: I was just agreeing with admin that I had gotton off track, not trying to say anything empirical about the Fall.
To all: thanks for the commentary and links. Obviously, when the excerpts got uploaded, skewing occurred (notice the ? marks in the middle of the date ranges- supposed to be hyphens.)
Dinosaurs I would most definitely think would probably belong in the time frame between Gen. 1:1-1:2, before the six-day account resulting in homo sapiens. Not a cop-out: but this is in toto giving me a greater realization that its not so cut-and-dried, that there's a larger area for faith than I considered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Coyote, posted 02-20-2010 10:03 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-22-2010 6:41 PM achristian1985 has not replied
 Message 72 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2010 7:37 PM achristian1985 has not replied
 Message 78 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2010 9:14 AM achristian1985 has replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 105 (547873)
02-23-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Granny Magda
02-23-2010 9:14 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Author’s note (2/23/10): the above paragraph is not correct as is. I have been told that this ordering is not valid. There are 3 possibilities for this:
1. The ordering of the six-day account is not literal, but is allegorical. (I do not wish to arbitrarily abandon this, since it is strong evidence of science verifying the Bible. 2. The six-day account is literal, and the ordering is correct. A. There are two separate ‘creations’ in Genesis: One which occurred between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2 which ended in the pre-Adamic race who rebelled, were judged with water, and became the disembodied spirits known as demons. B. The six-day account which resulted in Homo Sapiens. 3. Although evidence of the traces of the civilization of the pre-Adamic race were removed, traces of the geologic ages involved (unknown length) still exist. These traces may very well be interwoven with the geology involving Homo Sapiens. This interweaving may very well be the cause of the scientific chronology contradicting a literal ordering of the six life-forms of the six-day account. I will update this ASAP if further relevant empirical conclusions can be made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2010 9:14 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 3:42 AM achristian1985 has replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 105 (548358)
02-27-2010 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kbertsche
02-24-2010 9:08 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Evolution as a scientific discipline must be divorced from the associated parent philosophy Uniformitarianism which was in vogue preceding it for reasons which have been discredited since. Evolution is a valid scientific discipline, Uniformitarianism is a disproven philosophy and school of thought. Uniformitarianism has intruded and embedded itself into scientific thought and thus skewed many considerations of cosmology and astral physics from being objective and empirical. Never mind poor old Emmanuel Velikovsky: While the evidence that he was considering was and is relevant and valid, his derivations (due to his great lack in correct scientific methodology) and conclusions were far amiss. He thus did a great disservice to the school of astral catastrophism, and set back its credibility immensely.
The most recent conclusive disproof of Uniformitarianism is this(Coverage to the public was broadcast on a segment of Nova in the last 12 months):
1. In the past decade (survey completion in last 3-4 years) a radar/topological mapping satellite of improved precision surveyed the surface of Venus.
2. Recently formed (even of possibly historical times), non-eroded craters were found in large and significant quantities on the surface of Venus, craters which were not the result of volcanic activity, but of astral catastrophism (meteoric impact).
3. The renowned (I didn’t take note of his name, due to the following) uniformitarian astrophysicist was interviewed for his opinion he said: Well, I don’t see how Uniformitarianism can ever possibly explain these craters. But, nevertheless, I’m not willing to give it up.
4. Gentlemen, this is not objective, logical, scientific methodology. Scientific methodology requires that when the derived conclusions of your theory are found to be false in light of the evidence, then you either discard the theory or, if possible modify the flawed part of it accordingly. To cling to it after it has been disproved is not objective, it is religious domaticism.
Creationism per se in all of its multi-fared manifestations, invoking to some extent and at some point a supernatural genesis of species, thus by its very nature cannot nor ever can be a scientific discipline. That being the case, creationism has absolutely no place whatsoever in any scientific textbook.
Paul
http://www.amessageforthehumanrace.org
Genesis 1:3 NOT a continuation of Gen 1:2. Gen 1:1 uses bara; Gen1:3 etc. asah (ref: Earth's Earliest Ages. Gen 1:2 The earth BECAME (NOT was) waste and void.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:08 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 105 (548360)
02-27-2010 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by kbertsche
02-24-2010 9:17 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Try this to remove the blindness in the minds of the unbelieving put there by the god of this world:
CHAPTER ONE
THE AXIOM
I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness;
I did not say . . . Seek me in chaos.
--(Isaiah 5:19 D.S.V.)
There are two possible schools of thought pertaining to the evaluation of the Universe that we live in. One school of thought is embodied in the philosophy known as Solipsism. This philosophy expounds that all external reality is relative to the perception of the individual, or, in other words, all reality is subjective and cannot be described by objective analysis. As an example, Solipsism is the belief that everything that individuals perceive is a projection of the thoughts of their mind. Taken to its fullest implications, Solipsism means that if you think strongly that an object that you perceive does not really exist, then you will cease to perceive it and it will thus disappear. Conversely, if you think strongly enough that an object does exist, then you will perceive it and it will thus exist. Understandably, the ardent adherents of this school of thought soon lost what sanity they had.
When we lead from ignorance, we can come to no conclusions. When we say, Anything can happen, and anything can be, because we know so little that we have no right to say ‘This is’ or ‘This isn’t,’ then all reasoning comes to a halt right there. We can eliminate nothing; we can assert nothing. All we can do is put words and thoughts together on the basis of intuition or faith or revelation and, unfortunately, no two people seem to share the same intuition or faith or revelation.
What we must do is place rules and set limits, however arbitrary these may seem to be. We then discover what we can say within these rules and limits. The scientific view of the Universe is such as to admit only those phenomena that can, in one way or another, be observed in a fashion accessible to all, and to admit those generalizations (which we call laws of nature) that can be induced from those observations.1
Most importantly, Einstein presumed that all the laws of nature must be entirely equivalent in all conceivable systems of reference, differing only by uniform velocities. Without an ether, reasoned Einstein, there is no real physical basis for absolute spatial positions or orientations; all, therefore, must be relative to the observer. At the same time, all observers must see the many laws of nature in an identical way.2
Science deals only with phenomena that can be reproduced; observations that, under certain fixed conditions, can be made by anybody of normal intelligence; observations upon which reasonable men can agree.3
In opposition to Solipsism is the school of thought that objective interpretation of the universe we live in is possible. Since the validity of Solipsism would mean that it would be impossible to make logical sense out of what we are aware of, we will assume that Solipsism is invalid. Bearing this in mind, I propose the following axiom, which we may call the Axiom of Interdependency:
If a spiritual universe exists, there likewise must also exist laws or principles common to both such a spiritual universe and to the physical universe, in order for us to be able to perceive any manifestation of such a spiritual universe.
Notice that this axiom in no way assumes the existence of a spiritual universe. The reason why seeking objective proof of the existence of a spiritual universe is futile will be dealt with in later chapters.
What this axiom does say is that if a spiritual universe exists that does not have laws or principles in common with our physical universe, then we cannot be aware of it and thus it would be of no concern to us. However, if a spiritual universe exists such that we are aware of some of its manifestations, then it will have laws or principles in common with our physical universe. Thus, for any postulated assertion of a spiritual reality, there should be corresponding evidence of that reality reflected in our physical universe. Conversely, it should be possible to formulate a framework of characteristics of the physical universe that will indicate the nature of the corresponding spiritual reality. Practically speaking, this axiom means that it is possible to construct a logical theory encompassing virtually every field of science that will explain the purpose behind everything known to man.
Chapter Two
AN EXTRAPOLATION
... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)
There are two, and only two, explanations for the means whereby life now exists on this planet.
First, there is the explanation that life on earth was divinely created. Regardless of the great variety of legends depicting such an occurrence, all such legends have in common two things: Life was originated by some supernatural means, and some divine being or beings employed this means.
Since, obviously, there is no way that the above explanation of the origin of life can be subjected to any scientific analysis, it would be profitless to discuss its merits (at this point). Therefore, let us examine the other explanation for the origin of life and see what conclusions may be derived from such an analysis.
The other means I am referring to is, of course, the theory of evolution. By evolution, I mean the process or processes whereby life as we now know it has come about from an originally inorganic universe through purely mechanistic actions in conformity with the laws of the physical universe. Keeping these parameters in mind, let us now see what relevant conclusions may be derived:
Moreover, while Haldane and Oparin (both atheists) could cheerfully divorce life and God, others were offended by this and strove to show that there was no way in which the origin of life could be removed from the miraculous and made the result of the chance collisions of atoms.
A French biophysicist, Piere Lecomte du Noűy dealt with this very matter in his book, Human Destiny, which was published in 1947. By then the full complexity of the protein molecule was established, and Lecomte du Noűy attempted to show that if the various atom of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur arranged themselves in purely random order, the chance of their arriving in this way at even a single protein molecule of the type associated with life was so exceedingly small that the entire lifetime of the universe would be insufficient to offer it more than an insignificant chance of happening. Chance, he maintained, could not account for life....
Lecomte du Nouy's argument seemed exceedingly strong, and many people eagerly let themselves be persuaded by it and still do even today.
?Yet it is wrong.
Options Disable Sm The fallacy in Lecomte du Noūy’s argument rests in the assumption that pure chance was alone the guiding factor and that atoms can fit together in any fashion at all. Actually, atoms are guided in their combinations by well?known laws of physics and chemistry, so that the formation of complex compounds from simple ones are constrained by severely restrictive rules that sharply limit the number of different ways in which they combine. What's more, as we approach complex molecules, such as those of proteins and nucleic acids, there is no one particular molecule that is associated with life, but innumerable different molecules, till of which are in association.4
What we learn it from the above is that the formation of organic molecules from inorganic atoms is entirely permissible, mathematically speaking, according to the laws of physics and chemistry governing such interactions.
Most of the stony meteorites contain small glassy inclusions, and about two percent of these are called carbonaceous chondrites because they contain significant quantities of organic matter. The proportions, in fact, are extraordinarily high. About 0.1 percent of all material, which has ever fallen on Earth, is organic. By comparison, if we measure the total weight of all organic matter on earth against the mass of the planet itself, only 0.0000001 percent is of living origin. This means that meteors are coming from somewhere that is a million times more organic than earth itself?which is something one has to stop and think about for a while.5
Not only are organic molecules mechanistically permissible, but also direct evidence of their existence, in astounding proportions, elsewhere than on Earth is a fact.
These are the stuff of organic chemistry, the study of compounds producing, or produced by living organisms; and these are the kinds of reaction, which it now seems certain, are taking place between the stars.
Awareness of this possibility seems to have reached a peak at a gathering of astronomers in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1973. Several papers presented to what is now known as the Dusty Universe symposium pointed out that there seemed to be a lot of atoms missing from interstellar space. Spectroscopic analyses kept coming up with results that showed less carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen than everyone expected to find there.
New models were put forward, slid the most promising of these suggested that the missing atoms had gone undetected because they were bound up on the surface of interstellar dust grains in a sort of molecular mush which Mayo Greenburg called "dirty ice." At that time there was little experimental evidence for the existence of such accretions on cosmic grains, but since then, radio astronomy ? which receives and interprets microwaves rather than light waves, and can look right through interstellar clouds ? has given us what we need. The very short radio waves provide a sort of electronic spectrum that includes fingerprints as distinctive as those that appear in the lines of an optical spectrum. And in the last few years radio astronomers have detected an ever?increasing list of simple organic molecules in interstellar space.
The first substances detected in this way were nothing more than simple connections of the most common atoms: cyanogens (CN), carbon monoxide (CO), and hydrogen cyanide (HCN) But then formaldehyde (H2CO) was found, and before long formic acid (HCOOH), methanol (CH2OH) acetaldehyde (HCOCH3) and methyl firmate (HCOOCH3) turned up. One doesn't have to be a chemist to see that the progression is toward ever more complex organic compounds.6
The existence of organic molecules has not only been verified in meteors reaching the Earth's surface, but has also been verified as being true for interstellar space as well. How can this be so? Weren't we taught that chemical reactions required heat and were inhibited by cold, cold such as we find in interstellar space?
It used to be assumed that chemical reactions need heat and slow down as temperatures were reduced. This is true, but only up to a point. We now know that as the temperature nears absolute zero, a strange thermodynamic inversion takes place and many processes actually accelerate, so that the complex early evolution of carbon compounds is more likely to take place inside interstellar clouds than almost anywhere else.7
At any rate, Leslie Orgel did a number of elegant experiments of which I will describe the simplest. He took some of the basic constituents, which are sure to have been present in the atmosphere of the earth at any early time: hydrogen cyanide is one, ammonia is another. He made a dilute solution of them in water, and then froze the solution over a period of several days. As a result, the concentrated material is pushed into a sort of tiny iceberg to the top, and there the presence of a small amount of color reveals that organic molecules have been formed. Some amino acids, no doubt; but, most important, Orgel found that he had formed one of the four fundamental constituents in the genetic alphabet which directs all life. He had made adenine, one of the four bases in DNA.8
The chemical reactions permissible under cold conditions have been shown to be capable of producing a very high level of complexity of organic molecules, even up to the level of the basic constituent of all known life, DNA.
The compounds in the carbonaceous chondrites are not life; they have formed in the direction of our kind of life?and human experimenters have had nothing to do with their formation. On the whole, then, meteoritic studies tend to support laboratory, experiments and make it appear all the more likely that life is a natural, a normal, and even an inevitable phenomenon. Atoms apparently tend to come together to form compounds in the direction of our kind of life whenever they have the least chance to do so.9
It is always possible that the laboratory conditions producing organic molecules have exceeded the limits that existed under the natural conditions that they are simulating. However, meteorites have been shown to contain organic molecules with the same indications; and these were not produced by human experimentation.
It is a big jump from prebiotic molecules in interstellar clouds to primitive organisms on a comet, but it is not an unreasonable one. When a comet gets anywhere near the sun, its water melts and could mingle with the trapped dust to produce a solution of organic molecules which, we know from spectroscopic analysis of Khoutek's comet in 1973, includes amino acids and heterocyclic compounds.10
Scientific analysis has confirmed that organic molecules basic to life definitely do exist in space.
At least one further source of information about the strange things in meteorites remains to be explored. If the organic compounds are protocells in a state of suspended animation, perhaps they can be roused. Soviet and American scientists have been trying to do just that.
Fred Sisler of the United States Geological Survey has begun collecting samples from the interior of carbonaceous chondrites, and he finds that even after a long period under sterile conditions, some of his nutrient broths nevertheless cloud over, indicating the presence of living microorganisms. And at least one of these sleeping beauties, roused from an unimaginable slumber, is totally unfamiliar to terrestrial microbiologists. No one has ever seen anything like it here before, so it is going to be hard to dismiss that one as a contaminant.11
Not only have meteorites proven the existence of extraterrestrial organic molecules but, in one case, they have also given us proof of the existence of extraterrestrial life:
Several rigorous analyses of carbonaceous chondrites have now been made, and all show quite clearly that they contain compounds such as paraffins, long?chain aromatic hydrocarbons like tar, fatty acids, amino acids (the basic precursors of protein), and even porphyrins (the building blocks of chlorophyll). And in early 1977, an international group of seven scientists ? astronomers, chemists, and applied mathematicians ?collaborated in an intensive study on a recently collected chondrites from a site in Africa. They found that it contained an organic compound, an aromatic polymer, whose spectral properties are identical those long to known from interstellar extinction curves. The fingerprints are unique and unmistakable. For the first time we have proof that some meteorites have their origin in presolar interstellar clouds and must be among the most primitive solid bodies in the universe. And, more than that, we have evidence of a cosmic trade in which complex organic compounds, precisely those necessary for the initiation of life, are manufactured in space and imported here to Earth. 12
Evidence proves that meteorites are of interstellar origin. This means that organic material not only is distributed throughout interstellar space but also is readily available to any planetary system in the galaxy. Let us now examine what is known about processes involving organic molecules under terrestrial conditions.
In other words, we don't depend on chance alone, but on chance guided by the laws of nature, and that should be enough.
Could the matter be checked in the laboratory? The American chemist Harold Clayton Grey encouraged a young student, Stanley Lloyd Miller (1930), to run the necessary experiment in 1952.
Miller tried to duplicate primordial conditions on Earth, assuming Oparin's Atmosphere 1. He began with a closed and sterile mixture of water. Ammonia methane, and hydrogen, which represented a small and simple version of Earth's primordial atmosphere and ocean. He then used an electric discharge as an energy source, and that represented a tiny version of the Sun.
He circulated the mixture past the discharge for a week and then analyzed it. The originally colorless mixture had turned pink on the first day, and by the end of the week one?sixth of the methane with which Miller had started had been converted into more complex molecules. Among those molecules were glycine and alanine, the two simplest of the amino acids that occur in proteins.
In the years after that key experiment, other similar experiments were conducted with variations in starting materials and in energy sources. Invariably, more complicated molecules, sometimes identical with those in living tissues, sometimes merely related to them, were formed. An amazing variety of key molecules of living tissue were formed "spontaneously" in this manner, although calculations of the simplistic Lecomte du Nouy type would have given their formation virtually no chance.
If this could be done in small volumes over very short ? periods of time, what could have been done in an entire ocean, over a period of many millions of years?
It was also impressive that all the changes produced in the laboratory by the chance collisions of molecules and the chance absorption of energy (guided always by the known laws of nature) seemed to move always in the direction of life as we know it now. There seemed no important changes that pointed definitely in some different chemical direction.
That made it seem as though life were an inevitable product of high probability varieties of chemical reactions, and that the formation of life on the primordial Earth could not have been avoided. 13
All indications are that, given the constituency of the primordial?biosphere, the formation of life as we know it appears inevitable.
The implications were overwhelming. The ingredients themselves had the automatically linked together into these compounds fundamental to life.14
But the self?assembling tendency of matter, its inherent capacity to form living material, had been clearly demonstrated. 15
All of this evidence? in the laboratory, in meteorites, in interstellar clouds? makes it look as though the Haldane?Oparin suggestions are correct. Life did start spontaneously on the primordial Earth, and all indications would seem to be that it must have started readily, that the reactions in that direction were inevitable.
It follows that life would therefore start, sooner or later, on any habitable planet. 16
Scientific evidence indicates that, wherever favorable planetary conditions exist, life will inevitably evolve.
Obviously, the next question to be answered is: do we know whether or not our planetary system is unique?
A few photographic demonstrations of such massive planets have, in recent years, been achieved. Planets massive enough to be detected in this way are unlikely, however, to have conditions on them conducive to life, at least life, as we know it. Nevertheless, their existence does offer yet further indication of the universality of planetary systems. 17
Thus, the conditions are everywhere to be found throughout the universe much as we find them here in the solar system. The ingredients are everywhere the same, too, and the laws of physics. It would therefore seem almost impossible to escape the natural conclusion that life must consequently have arisen elsewhere in the universe? independently, many times, and in many places.18
As we survey evolution on Earth, there does seem a trend in the direction of increasing size and complexity (occasionally overdone?, to be sure, to the point of diminishing returns). What's more, increasing complexity seems almost to involve increasing intelligence in widespread groups of living things....
The weight of evidence, as presently known, therefore forces us to consider that intelligence, and sufficient intelligence to produce a civilization, is more or less an inevitable development on a habitable planet given sufficient time.... 19
The next step is to estimate the number of habitable planets both in the universe and in our particular galaxy.
Up to a billion galaxies can be detected by modern telescopes, stretching out to distances of a billion light?years.20
That would mean that in the observable universe, there are as many as 1,000,000,000,000,000.000,000 (a billion trillion) stars.21
ilies 1 - The number of stars in our galaxy ? 300 '000,000,000.22
8 ? The number of habitable planets in our galaxy ? 650,000,000.23
It is rather breathtaking to decide on the basis of (we hope) strict logic and the beat evidence we can find that there are 650 million habitable planets in our galaxy alone, and therefore over 2 billion billion in the Universe as a whole.24
How hard it is for the human mind to comprehend the enormity of this conclusion! How hard it is to realize the astronomical magnitude of our universe!
The number of planets in our galaxy on which a technological civilization has developed ? 390,000,000:...
That means that of the 390 million civilizations in our galaxy, only 260 are as primitive as we are?an inconsiderable number. All the rest (meaning just about all of them) are more advanced than we are.25
According to what are perhaps the most logical estimates that we can at present supply, there are 390 million civilizations in our galaxy alone, all but 260 of which are more advanced than ours. There are approximately 3 billion times that many civilizations in the universe. What conclusions can be deduced if we add to these figures the implications inherent to the process of evolution itself?
The ultimate result is that each creature tends to become more and more improved in relation to its condition. This improvement leads to the gradual advancement of the organization of the greater number of living beings throughout the world. 26
Evolution is the climbing of a ladder from simple to complex by steps, each of which is stable in itself. That is what has brought life by slow steps but constantly up a ladder of increasing complexity- which is the central progress and problem in evolution. 27
It might even be that a dying civilization might provide for its own succession, either by the genetic engineering of some near-intelligent species or by the creation of artificial intelligence. 28
Given the vastness of the universe and the consequent profusion of life, what must the ultimate consummation of the process of evolution be?
It is my contention that the inevitable and ultimate result of evolution is this: that somewhere, sooner or later, an entity would be evolved through either natural or artificial means which would no longer be subject to time.
What are the implications of such a conclusion?
Such an entity would in all practicality be:
1. Omnipotent and
2. Omniscient and
3. Omnipresent.
Such an entity would, by definition, be God.
By no means am I intending to speculate about the origin of God.
Such speculation is vain at best and blasphemous at worst. My intention is to show that no matter what method that you employ to explain the existence of life; the inevitable implication is the existence and reality of God.
Summary of Chapter Two:
The fool has said in his heart; there is no God. (Psalm 12:1)
amessageforthehumanrace.org
Chapter Seven. Past History: The World System p.125
I. The Material System
A. The Origin of the Material System
B. The True Purpose of the Material System
II. The Religious System
A. The Source of Religion
B. The World’s Religions
C. The Jewish Religion
D. Christianity, the Religion
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add some more blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:17 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 105 (548362)
02-27-2010 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Granny Magda
02-24-2010 3:42 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Schliemann found the Bible to be scientifically helpful. Most of the verifiable validity of the Bible is historical, beyond that can interfere with free will. Every truth in the Bible is two-sided, with both literal and allegorical. Yes, we have to have a mental awareness of knowledge to understand spiritual things, BUT true wisdom comes from spiritual revelation- otherwise don't you think we would (with information and technology) have been able to figure it out (and Coyote would be born again! grrr...)? The relationship God wants with man is a Divine Romance, same as what a man desires in a wife- no spiritual robots nor couch potato lovers.
Edited by achristian1985, : mispelled a word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 3:42 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Granny Magda, posted 02-27-2010 6:20 AM achristian1985 has not replied
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2010 10:15 AM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 105 (548415)
02-27-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
05-11-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Theistic Evolutionism???
Knowledge led me to the Truth, and I have been endeavoring to convey that Truth by finding the correlations in knowledge. Go ahead, shoot the messenger. Much more scientific details have been uncovered in some relevant areas in the past 30 years. I am not a specialist: other, more knowledgeable persons will have to convey such specifics.
I think it is fair to say that many members are motivated by a desire to take pride in being the most knowledgeable about the particular piece of the puzzle that interests them the most. A specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally they know everything about nothing. Some members have no interest in seeing how their piece fits in, nor about what the complete picture looks like. Anyone who is a member is capable and informed enough to see what direction our world is headed. Can anyone or even all of us change that course? No amount of scientific knowledge, industrial technology, and/or religious (either theist or atheistic) zeal can alter it.
Is there any member who doesn’t have some cognizance, however vague, that the Bible predicts this? Surely this is mere coincidence, and no reason to pull our heads out of the sand?
When teaching anyone a language you first show them the picture, and then the word associated with it. The Old Testament is the pictures.
There was a man named Noah, who built an ark. His building of the ark, and his entering into it, delivered him from the flood.
Two thousand years ago another man- the last Adam- stated that He would build His church and that if we let Him, He would make us the materials for this.
The flood is coming. It’s time to find and enter the lifeboat. There is no more time to argue about icebergs, or plumbing, or to compare staterooms.
My prayers for you, my fellow human beings.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-11-2005 2:08 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Coragyps, posted 02-27-2010 8:19 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024