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Member (Idle past 4837 days) Posts: 400 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Faith vs Skepticism - Why faith? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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To me, the biggest difference between faith and skepticism is that faith relies on a number of preconceptions, while skepticism seeks to eliminate preconceptions by considering several possibilities in a debate. That seems fairly accurate. One qualifier I might add is that faith is capable of considering several possibilities too.
The epitome of a faith-based approach is one that holds that it knows the truth from the onset, That doesn't fit for me and my faith. From The Catholic Encyclopedia on Faith:
quote: quote: bold added for emphasis
while the epitome of a skeptic will question everything. Too though, the objects of faith can be questioned.
A person who takes everything he believes on faith relies on the truth of his beliefs. Not so much with my faith. And who takes everything they believe on faith!?
Many Creationists who I have talked to have used a faith-based approach to their worldview. In other words, they believe for no other reason than that they believe. I don't think I'm fitting into your target audience here. Oh well, that ain't gonna stop me from replying
My question is: How do you argue a faith-based approach to Truth? I think the Catholic Encyclopedia has some great pages pertaining to your topic. I don't think they are the explanation you are particularly looking for, but maybe if you just want to honestly learn about it, you can find some answers in these pages:
The Catholic Encyclopedia on TRUTH quote: The Catholic Encyclopedia on REVELATION quote: I hope this helps explain how a faith-based approach to truth is not necessarily the antithesis of approaching truth through "questioning everything" I realize your discussion focuses on those for which this is not true but I just wanted to explain that the way you're expressing things here doesn't fit for many poeple. Like when you say this:
Why is blind faith taught as a virtue, when in its essence it requires the acceptance of doctrine that others prior have accepted for no other reason than faith itself. Not to mention the surrender of individual exploration of all other possible explanations for the world we live in.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Weak faith is faith that is based on observable evidence. Example: I have faith in my friends because they have shown themselves to be reliable in the past. If, however, one of my friends was to break into my house and steal my TV, I would no longer have faith in him. Sounds like 'trust' to me...
Strong faith, on the other hand, shapes one's worldview. All evidence is aligned with it per necessity. Someone who has a strong faith in my creek troll would interpret footprints and broken twigs as having been caused by the troll. While repeated scans of the creek not having discovered it can be blamed on its amazing ability to camoflauge itself by turning into a log. I don't think that's faith either I'd call that willfull ignorance and mental gymnastics. For me, the worldview is shaped by experience. Faith is reserved for a position that lacks sufficient evidence but is believed anyway.
While weak faith is susceptible to change, strong faith cannot be attacked, because it interprets the evidence in favor of itself. Curious to see what you think of this definition of faith.
I know what your referring to but I just don't use the word 'faith' for it.
I'm curious how you go about finding moral truth and ontological truth. Would you say your approach to the latter two is more of a faith approach, or can you use an empirical approach to find moral and ontological truth as well? I don't think a strictly empirical approach is going to work for things that aren't clearly and objectively existant.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Thank you CS. You're welcome, Meldinoor... What does "Meldinoor" mean? <-- clicky
I agree, my definition of weak faith is about synonomous to trust. Well okay, I guess that's fine.
But trust can be very strong. For sure. Look at how bad some marriages end.
In your definition of faith, does faith entitle certainty? Nope. If I was certain then I would "know".
In other words, are you certain of those things that lack "sufficient evidence but are believed anyway"? Or do you just believe them, not certain, but sufficiently convinced by subjective evidence to take a stand? Yes, the latter. That's how it feels to me. Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence. Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith. Science has failed our world. Science has failed our Mother Earth. -System of a Down, "Science" He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Hey CS. I am not here to continue old (and ongoing) differences. But I am genuinely interested in faith and what it means to different people. So I will ask a question and I promise not to debate the answer you give. I won't even reply. If its genuine interest, then reply away. I'm open to sharing. I don't care to "argue" my personal beliefs though.
The faith you describe sounds like a kind of overconfidence in poor evidence rather than what I would have thought many mean by faith. Yeah, but in addition to the overconfidence in poor evidence remains the confidence in the face of a lack of evidence that I think you're thinking many others mean by faith. Is that what you're referring to?
So if evidence did ever appear that did refute or contradict your faith would you abandon your faith? Yes, to an extent. Its so hypothetical though. It depends on the strength of the evidence vs. the strength of the faith. For examples: Zeitgiest didn't make me doubt Jesus' divinity while the ToE proves that Genesis isn't literal and inerrant.
I guess that my question amounts to: Is your faith reliant upon and subject to evidence? Or is it something deeper and independent of evidence at root? I think its kind of both.... It is subject to evidence, but there does seem to be something deeper there that I have little choice with.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I was thinking more about brief conversations with (or that I have witnessed others have with) Blujay and Percy. Got a link? Sounds like an interesting read.
Their faith seems kind of evidence independent. I wondered if yours was very different. It seems it might be. I doubt it is very different, but my faith is not evidence independent. I was an atheist for a while around college-time. I did some investigating of various religion and soul-searching kind of stuff and ended up concluding that god does exist. From what I experienced, I don't think I can go back and choose to not believe in god anymore.
But others seem to think that their faith based conclusion are flying in the face of likelihood without being particularly concerned by this.
What do you mean that they think that their conclusion are flying in the face of likelihood?
I think its kind of both....
Well that is interesting. I am not sure that I understand it. But it is interesting. It is subject to evidence, but there does seem to be something deeper there that I have little choice with. Like I was saying above, I'm convinced. I'm capable of being convinced otherwise, but still then, it wouldn't really be me choosing to be convinced. It would just happen. For a, somewhat poor, analogy (that I think has been brought up to you before), think of your favorite color. Do you have any choice in that matter? I don't, I just like red.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is no objectively evidenced reason to think gods even might exist. That the majority of humans think that god exists is an objectively evidenced reason the think that they might.
If you ever manage to overcome your cognitive blindspot regarding evidenced possibilities you will come to realise that the possibility of gods being human inventions is infinitely more objectively evidenced as a possibility than the totally objectively unevidenced possibility that gods actually exist. And if you realize that the premise that 'the possibility that gods actually exist is totally objectively unevidenced' is false then you'll see that your argument isn't sound.
your favoured strawman of absolute statements of logical certitude which no-one is making or has ever made at any point in these discussions. Totally unevidence... infinitely more likely... Sounds like absolutes to me.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is no reason to suppose there is one. There is no reason for the god hypothesis. The Bible. or My mommy told me god exists. There's reasons to suppose....
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The point is that if anyone makes any claim (whether it's true or not) the initial position in science is the null position. That is the starting point. That's all fine and dandy in the lab, but for everyday pratical purposes it just doesn't work.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You're right, I should have been more specific. There is no objective evidence to suppose the god hypothesis. Millions of believers couldn't be wrong... an objective reason for supposition.
And appeals to authorities, which I would say your mom and the Bible are, is not (IMO) a good reason. But a reason none-the-less?
But they're subjective, so I won't argue that they're not relevant to the individual. They're just not relevant in a scientific way. But I'm not in the lab right now...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
As an aside, in regards to the methodology of science:
When the gravity equations didn't come out right and the proposition for dark matter emerged, as opposed to questioning the validity of the equations, wouldn't you agree that the methodology of science was not how you are describing it here?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The belief that if a lot of others believe something, I should too, is not objective in the least. It's subjective. What's objective is that millions of people believe.
Appeal to popularity? Millions of believers are wrong on all sorts of things. While logically fallacious and a poorly accurate, its still a reason to suppose the existence of god.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
When the gravity equations didn't come out right and the proposition for dark matter emerged, as opposed to questioning the validity of the equations, wouldn't you agree that the methodology of science was not how you are describing it here? But the gravity equations had been correct for a lot of other instances. There was evidence that they are accurate (or close to it) and one bit of evidence that there was something wrong. The options are to propose something new "dark matter" or scrap the equations. The evidence was on the side of the equations. And there are a number of scientists out there who are trying other gravity equations to do away with dark matter. I don't see how the failure of an equation causing the supposition of something totally new fits in with science assuming the null position until objective evidence comes along.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is equally no reason to ask if there's a teapot orbiting Sirius. If there exists an IPU. If the FSM exists. If fairies exist. If unicorns exist. If god exists. These questions are unnecessary.
I don't think so. For one, I think my subjective experiences do necessitate the question so the lack of objectiveness doesn't really matter for me. For two, I think there is objective reasons to suppoes that god exists. The question IS relevent.
The god question does not follow this level of logic. It is an out of the blue question with no objective reason to even ask. That the millions of people could be wrong doesn't negate the objectiveness of the evidence nor it being a reason for the supposition of a god existing.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What's objective is that millions of people believe.
But that says nothing in support of the need to ask the question in the first place.
Sure it does. Why do so many people believe? Maybe there really is a god. The supposition has begun.
There was a time when everyone believed in a geocentric solar system; in fact, a geocentric universe because they thought the solar system was all there was. There was a time when everyone thought the earth was flat. There was a time when everyone thought slavery was ok. The popularity doesn't add weight to the veracity, but it is a reason to suppose.
What is the phenomenon that needs answering that the god hypothesis will answer? The majority of people believing that god does exist.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
For one, I think my subjective experiences do necessitate the question so the lack of objectiveness doesn't really matter for me.
I don't doubt that you do, and that the question feel relevant to you.
Yeah, and you're right that in the context of scientific methodlogy, the question of god's existence is uneccessary. God never comes up in the lab. But outside of that, I think it is a relevant question and supposition is warranted.
For two, I think there is objective reasons to suppoes that god exists. Like what?
That the millions of people could be wrong doesn't negate the objectiveness of the evidence nor it being a reason for the supposition of a god existing. All it is reason for is to ask why those people feel the question is relevant. If I ask you why you feel it's relevant, and you answer, because a million people feel it's relevant. Then my next question is why a million people feel it's relevant? - Because a billion feel it's relevant? OK. Then why do a billion feel it's relevant? So on and so forth. You just moved the question from an individual to a group, to a larger group, to an even larger group - and no one answers the question.
I think you're moving the goalpost. You said that there's no objective reason to suppose the existence of god. From a scientific standpoint, I tend to agree. But since that methodology doesn't work pratically for everyday situations, I've moved from the purely scientific standpoint. And then I think that its fairly easy to find an objective reason for the supposition. Old books saying so and the popularity of the belief are the first two reasons that came to mind. I think they're sufficient enough to at least suppose that god exists.
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