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What makes you think you've been invited?
Rrhain, you might like repeating yourself. I hate it. But one more time, just for you, I'll spell this out.
The bar is attempting to entice me to partake of their services by allowing smoking as one of their services. I choose to take them up on this enticement.
If you need it simpler than that, I'm afraid I can't help you.
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I have just as much right to be there as you do.
Yes, you certainly do. And you have just as much right as me to leave if you don't like the conditions there, don't you?
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Would you mind if I urinated in your drink?
Yes, I would mind. Which is why I don't frequent sex clubs where that sort of thing is encouraged. I choose to take my business to an environment that caters to me. As a result, I stick to bars with a strict "no pissing in other peoples' drinks" policy.
See how simple that is? I don't like the environment at a business... so I take my money elsewhere. Wotta concept.
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The fact that other people are doing it doesn't mean you have permission.
True. The fact that the owner of the bar has given me permission is what gives me permission. You know how he/she has done so? By allowing smoking in his/her bar.
Does all this really need to be explained?
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You can have one or the other but not both. That is, either all the places can be smoking or all the places can be smoke-free. It is an unviable position to be one when everybody else is the other.
Why is that? If there's really such a legion of bar patrons who want non-smoking bars, then wouldn't being the only non-smoking bar in town be a gold-mine?
That is, of course, if the patrons actually want a non-smoking bar.
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I don't know how many times I can explain the concept of a bar, and why it is not a smoking room.
You've stated this, yes. That's not the same as explaining it. One does not go to a bar simply to drink alcohol. One goes to a bar for conditions and circumstances in which the alcohol will be enjoyable to drink. These run the range from dancing, games, music, and any number of other things. If one of the amenities provided is that smoking is allowed, then the bar is, in fact, a smoking room as well as a drinking room.
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Where in the liquor license does it talk about smoking?
Nowhere. Where does it mention chicken wings? Where does it mention a jukebox? Where does it mention a pool table?
The Starbucks I worked at in high school had a restaurant license. We had to have one because of the toaster with which we heated bagels. Nowhere on the restaurant license did it mention coffee.
Clearly, by your logic, Starbucks is not a coffee house.
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Did it occur to you that perhaps your premise was mistaken? That you are starting from an untenable position?
My premise, which you managed to quote twice and still ignore, was that if a bar owner wants to allow smoking at his bar, he has to be able to allow smoking at his bar.
I would have thought this was self explanatory. Apparently you find it untenable. May I ask why?
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A bar does business with the public.
Yes. It is a private institution that does business with the public. It is not your job to determine the terms of that business. It is (or ideally should be) between the bar owner and his/her patrons.
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They passed a law.
Oh, a law! Well forget it then. It must be right.
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Because the smokers won't stop smoking.
Why are the smokers even relevant to the establishment of a non-smoking bar? If there are that many non-smokers horribly put out by smokers, shouldn't they be able to support a non-smoking bar?
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No, I'm being quite serious. I asked you a direct question: What does that have to do with anything? Seeing as how if I serve you a drink, it will need to be in a container of some kind and thus I should consider providing a pleasing container for you have to do with smoking?
Again. One does not go to a bar to slam a cold one and take off. You can always stop at the liquor store and do that at home. One stops at a bar for a nice place to have a drink. To kick back and grab a smoke. To chat up a pretty college girl. Whatever. These features are what makes the bar. Sure, smoking isn't necessary to have a drink. Neither is a glass that doesn't taste like a dog's mouth. Both increase the enjoyment.
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Business hasn't dropped in California. Despite all the whining from various camps that said that it would destroy business, there was no drop and, if I recall correctly, business actually increased.
Wow. Sounds like they didn't need a law at all. If business increased, then obviously there are lots of people who would prefer a non-smoking bar to a smoking one. Makes me wonder why they don't just open a non-smoking bar, instead of trying to dictate terms to the smoking ones.
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(*blink!*)
You didn't just say that, did you?
(*blinks back!*)
Yup. Looks like I did.
If bars aren't in the business of providing a place to smoke, then why do you want to stop them from providing a place to smoke? Sounds like a big waste of effort to me.
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Care to answer the point, then? Or are snide comments the only thing you have?
There are many things in a bar besides alcohol.
Pretty simple when you read it, huh?
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When was the last time somebody died while playing pool or listening to music? Come on...but those brain cells to work (assuming they're not dead from oxygen deprivation).
This becomes very funny one post down the line, when you accuse me of being defensive.
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But if you don't actually answer it directly, then it isn't really an answer.
Just for you, Rrhain... really slowly, really simply.
No, there is no need to limit employees to smokers only. Those willing to do the job, either smoker or non-smoker, will do just fine. Just like every other job on Earth.
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Yeah, and prostitutes can get out of the business whenever they want, too.
Man... those pimps in the bar industry? Fucking vicious. Once saw a bartender get his nose cut off for trying to quit.
Tell you what. Go talk to a hooker. Ask her if she's got more or less options than a bartender.
Let me know if she laughs, cries, or punches you.
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Really? There was a sign?
Yup. That ashtray you insist so strongly is "not an invitation."
Can you give me one single reasons a business which did not allow smoking would provide ashtrays for its customers? For funny hats, perhaps?
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How is a coerced response a legitimate response?
What you call coercion, most people call promise of greater profits. Of course, if we look at your comments on California, even the idea of greater profits falls apart. So where exactly is the coercion?
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But when did your business of buying a drink become a business of smoking?
Around when the bar decided to offer me a place to smoke, I suppose.
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No, they don't have a choice about that. If they don't let you smoke, they won't remain in business when surrounded by business that allow it.
Yup. I would definitely go to another bar. That's called capitalism. If the bar next door was charging less for drinks, I'd probably go there instead too. Bastard that I am, I'd be "coercing" the first bar to lower its prices.
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It's recognition of a reality. You're going to smoke whether they like it or not.
Actually, if I saw a no-smoking sign up, I wouldn't smoke. I probably wouldn't bring my business back there either. Just like if the bars around here all went non-smoking by law, I'd just drink at a friend's apartment.
Would I still be coercing them if the law was passed, and I stopped patronizing their business?
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Do you not understand the process of, "We would rather you didn't, but if you are going to, then..."?
Sure. But I better understand, "We'd rather you didn't. And it's our place. So don't."
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The problem is that smokers smoke everywhere. You can't get away from it.
Sure you can. Leave the bar. Bye!
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So since a non-smoking bar can't survive surrounded by smoking bars, how do you find it a "free choice" to permit smoking in a bar?
But Rrhain, the way you tell it there are throngs of non-smokers yearning for a place to call their own! Surely one bar could arise to meet this growing market?
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Yeah, that's not coercion. Do it our way or starve. That's a real free choice.
How about, "do it the way of the people providing the money, or don't get the money."
Waitwait... how about "provide a service people want, or don't get paid."
My God, what a horrible dystopian age this has become. You know, I have to go to work and do my job each day or not eat. Where's my special law?
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And how does one become qualified for those jobs?
Those on a skill level with bartender? Usually by being able to fill out the application.
They pay less, sure. Job happiness or more money... which to choose?
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Nah, couldn't be. All options are equally available and equally viable.
From the way you're reacting, it would seem that I suggested they quite their jobs and run for Senate or something. There are other jobs on a level with or lower than bartender. There are very few jobs on a level with or lower than prostitute. Comparing the two directly is ridiculous.
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Did you ask the rest of the waitstaff?
What, the other bartender, who had just stamped out a butt?
You know, I didn't bother?
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A bar is not a smoking room.
If you keep saying that over and over, it'll probably become more convincing. But if a bar is not a smoking room (presumably "a room in which people smoke?") then what's your problem?
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Oh, please...you're not about to say that a car pollutes and thus that makes it OK to smoke in another person's face, are you?
No. Two wrongs don't make a right. But I do wonder how you can be against one and not the other.
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I'll sit in a gasoline powered car for ten minutes with the windows rolled up, and smoke a full cigarette. Meanwhile, you can sit in a car of the same year and model with the windows rolled up, and a hose leading from the exhaust pipe into the car. We'll see who comes out in better health.
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What makes you think it has any emissions?
Most cars do. But that's why I'm asking, to find out.
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The waitstaff can walk out of a bar?
Yup. Legs... marvelous things, aren't they?
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They are there because they need the money.
Obviously more than they need a different job.
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But do you need to transport yourself and goods from one place to the next in front of other people?
Sure. But I certainly don't need to do so with a gasoline-powered engine when more eco-friendly options are available.
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